My "Naturo" Friend

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Cartollomew
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My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Cartollomew » 30 Jun 2009, 19:40

So I have a friend I occassionally spar with on topics such as "why auras don't exist" and "people who don't vaccinate are socially irresponsible".

Most recent discourse (this is apparently huge, TLDR follows):
(5:12:22 PM) Annaleisa: hello sir
(5:12:26 PM) Annaleisa: how is everything?
(5:12:31 PM) Self: eh, not so bad
(5:12:40 PM) Self: you?
(5:12:46 PM) Annaleisa: i'm lovely thanks
(5:12:54 PM) Annaleisa: sure you're ok?
(5:13:34 PM) Self: yep. slightly sick - made an appointment to get some antibiotics
(5:13:52 PM) Self: i went two weeks ago and the doc was convinced it was just viral -.-
(5:13:57 PM) Self: otherwise fine
(5:14:19 PM) Annaleisa: sigh
(5:14:28 PM) Annaleisa: did you take some flora with your antibiotics?
(5:14:40 PM) Annaleisa: otherwise you kill allthe good stuff too
(5:14:41 PM) Self: i haven't been given any antibiotics yet
(5:14:53 PM) Annaleisa: ooh
(5:14:59 PM) Annaleisa: well i would advise against it
(5:15:03 PM) Self: but yeh, i'll knock back some yogurt or something
(5:15:22 PM) Annaleisa: if you take some flora (in the hardcore capsule form) it'll kill off the bad stuff
(5:15:31 PM) Annaleisa: works better than anit all of them
(5:15:34 PM) Annaleisa: anti**
(5:15:40 PM) Self: and what, pray tell, is flora?
(5:16:54 PM) Annaleisa: ultra flora sb dysbiosis.
(5:16:59 PM) Annaleisa: it's a probiotic
(5:17:35 PM) Self: that's great and all, but the infection i have is regular old bacteria - probably strep
(5:18:01 PM) Annaleisa: yup, so pro biotics will help your immune system fight it off
(5:18:16 PM) Self: that's not how immune systems work
(5:18:40 PM) Annaleisa: it's bacteria in your gut right?
(5:18:56 PM) Self: it's strep - the bacterial infection in this case occurs in my throat
(5:19:19 PM) Annaleisa: but it's still in your system
(5:19:54 PM) Self: what does that have to do with my immune system?
(5:20:55 PM) Annaleisa: if you have bacteria in your body
(5:21:04 PM) Annaleisa: then you're immune system isn't working properly is it?
(5:21:19 PM) Annaleisa: coz bad bacteria isn't meant to be there
(5:21:46 PM) Self: no, it means part of my body has become infected with bad bacteria; it doesn't have a lot to do with the working nature of my immune system
(5:22:06 PM) Self: which also doesn't have a lot to do with whether or not the stocks of "good" bacteria in my stomach are high or low
(5:22:43 PM) Annaleisa: actually it does. coz if you had lots of lovely good bacteria in your system, then you wouldn't still be sick.
(5:22:48 PM) Self: taking antibiotics will knock out a large number of the cultures in my system - including the good, hence yogurt can help a little if you're taking the antibiotics
(5:23:03 PM) Annaleisa: or ultra flora
(5:23:10 PM) Annaleisa: which is much better
(5:23:10 PM) Self: sweetie, can you tell me what the good bacteria actually do for me?
(5:23:17 PM) Self: the ones in my stomach?
(5:24:36 PM) Annaleisa: At first, probiotics were thought to beneficially affect the host by improving its intestinal microbial balance, thus inhibiting pathogens and toxin producing bacteria.
(5:24:57 PM) Annaleisa: when you're sick in one part of your body, it's not just in one part.
(5:25:06 PM) Annaleisa: it travels everywhere.
(5:25:20 PM) Self: except that that's bullshit
(5:25:30 PM) Self: i have an infection in the tissue of my throat
(5:25:38 PM) Self: the infection hasn't spread anywhere else
(5:25:42 PM) Self: it *can*, but it hasn't
(5:26:20 PM) Self: my immune system has learned to recognise the good bacteria in my gut - but that has little if anything to do with infections elsewhere in my body
(5:26:35 PM) Annaleisa: you're infected *.*
(5:26:53 PM) Self: if i cut my skin, and the wound becomes infected, it's infected in the wound
(5:27:14 PM) Annaleisa: and you have poison in your blood, which travels throughout your body.,
(5:27:18 PM) Self: the infection *can* spread, but if you treat it right and are relatively healthy, it won't
(5:27:34 PM) Self: yeh, but it can't actually do anything
(5:27:56 PM) Self: otherwise i'd be infected in all my tissue
(5:28:12 PM) Annaleisa: when you have a throat infection, you're whole body is full of bacteria, however it is most effected in your throat.
(5:28:38 PM) Annaleisa: so if you take stuff that helps good bacteria grow in your gut, it encorages your body to fight off the infection everwhere
(5:28:38 PM) Self: i appreciate the concepts put forth by holistic theories, but sometimes it really is just one part of the body that is the cause
(5:28:49 PM) Self: that doesn't make sense
(5:29:05 PM) Self: the stuff growing in my gut has nothing to do with the infection in my throat
(5:29:05 PM) Annaleisa: what happens when you swallow?
(5:29:14 PM) Self: it hurts
(5:29:16 PM) Self: :-P
(5:29:26 PM) Annaleisa: so bacteria is in your gut.
(5:29:33 PM) Annaleisa: be realistic.
(5:29:43 PM) Self: so what?
(5:30:46 PM) Annaleisa: just treat your gut ok.
(5:30:55 PM) Annaleisa: i've been there, and done all the doctor crap
(5:30:57 PM) Annaleisa: and it's crap
(5:31:02 PM) Annaleisa: and you're not listening to me
(5:31:13 PM) Self: sweetie, just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean all medicine is wrong
(5:31:14 PM) Annaleisa: even though i've had far more experience with this sort of thing
(5:31:26 PM) Self: some doctors are assholes, just like any other profession
(5:31:26 PM) Annaleisa: i'm not saying doctors are crap
(5:31:45 PM) Annaleisa: i'm saying that i've had countelss infections
(5:31:57 PM) Annaleisa: and the best thing to do, to feel better (which is your aim)
(5:32:05 PM) Annaleisa: is fix your gut
(5:32:08 PM) Self: no, my aim is to kill the infection
(5:32:18 PM) Self: if i just wanted to feel better, i'd take analgesics
(5:32:29 PM) Self: if i don't take antiobiotics, this is liable to last for more than a month
(5:32:35 PM) Annaleisa: my understanding of better is healthy.
(5:32:42 PM) Self: bacterial infections aren't like viral infections
(5:33:04 PM) Self: if i leave this, or just take probiotics, it'll be with me for months
(5:33:12 PM) Self: if i take antiobiotics, it'll be gone within a week
(5:33:40 PM) Annaleisa: if you looked after your body, it wouldn't have been a problem to begin with
(5:33:51 PM) Annaleisa: (A)
(5:33:57 PM) Annaleisa: anyway, i have to go
(5:34:06 PM) Self: we can agree on that last part :-P
(5:34:11 PM) Self: later miss
(5:34:12 PM) Annaleisa: hopefully the antibiotocs wont cause too much damage
(5:34:16 PM) Annaleisa: :P
(5:34:17 PM) Self: i'll be fine
(5:34:19 PM) Annaleisa: ciaos <3

TLDR:
She thinks antibiotics are harmful, and I should take (what is effectively Yakult - fermented milk) to treat an infection.

Seriously, how can someone be opposed to antibiotics? Vaccination, maybe, I can forgive - although it's hard to look past the damage done by polio, even though it was way before my time.

But antibiotics? Really?
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Cartollomew
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Cartollomew » 30 Jun 2009, 19:42

Also:

"ultra flora sb dysbiosis"

Say this out loud. Does anyone else get the feeling that whoever is peddling this stuff came up with the name as a huge joke (think Mary Poppins)?
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Karjalan » 30 Jun 2009, 20:09

While yes it is TLDR, the over use of antibiotics is bad as a whole as it becomes easier for bacteria to develop immunities. We're already exhausted quite a few antibiotics and people are getting them prescribed for everything, from a head cold, to a stubbed toe, to yeast infections (even though this is the EXACT opposite of what you want), eventually making much more concerning bacteria immune to antibiotics and dooming some poor buggers.
Ontop of that, it seems like every other product is "anti bacterial" i.e. cleaning products, soaps, teeth care etc... An over saturation of antibiotics is bad in the long run.

HOWEVER, if she is simply stating anti biotics are bad for you and you should never use them, then I just /facepalm.
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Cartollomew » 01 Jul 2009, 01:07

Karjalan wrote:While yes it is TLDR, the over use of antibiotics is bad as a whole as it becomes easier for bacteria to develop immunities. We're already exhausted quite a few antibiotics and people are getting them prescribed for everything, from a head cold, to a stubbed toe, to yeast infections (even though this is the EXACT opposite of what you want), eventually making much more concerning bacteria immune to antibiotics and dooming some poor buggers.
Ontop of that, it seems like every other product is "anti bacterial" i.e. cleaning products, soaps, teeth care etc... An over saturation of antibiotics is bad in the long run.
Part of the problem is that people fail to use antibiotics properly - not completing a course, for example, is a good way to end up with resistant bacteria.
HOWEVER, if she is simply stating anti biotics are bad for you and you should never use them, then I just /facepalm.
Yeh, she's saying exactly this. /sigh
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Takius » 01 Jul 2009, 02:07

Does your lovely friend wear tin foil hats and think she's being watched as well?

The misunderstanding of medicine today is shocking.
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Cartollomew » 01 Jul 2009, 02:29

Takius wrote:Does your lovely friend wear tin foil hats and think she's being watched as well?

The misunderstanding of medicine today is shocking.
Her family are into the whole conspiracy of modern medicine thing (right down to "fluoride in water is bad!"). She's also had some bad experiences with hospitals and doctors (exacerbated no doubt by her family's attitude).

But yeh, these days I pretty much just sigh.
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Vampirial » 01 Jul 2009, 10:14

Just go and hit your head against a brick wall rather than talk to her. Some people you just cannot explain things too. And gut and throat are too different areas of your body. Fixing your gut (thats not broken) to fix your throat is the funniest thing I've heard all day :P I think she's read 1 too many books on bacteria and is having trouble distinguishing how good bacteria and bad bacteria are essentially the same thing - just not when there not meant to be in that area of your body or in diff quantities.

Hope your better cart and took lots of floras :D
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Cartollomew » 01 Jul 2009, 12:16

Satrix wrote:Fixing your gut (thats not broken) to fix your throat is the funniest thing I've heard all day :P
It's a pretty classic "holistic" line; the idea is that it's not just one part of your body that is sick, it's all of it. Therefore these short-sighted "mainstream" medical approaches where you just treat the one area or system are inadequate at best, and dangerous at worst!

The fact that that idea is usually contrary to any logic doesn't seem to phase these people in the slightest > . >

I'm off to the doctor in 2 hours; I have some nasty white stuff on my throat, so I'm not leaving until I get a prescription, dammit (the last time I ignored a throat infection like this, it lingered for over 60 days).
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Naoru » 04 Jul 2009, 16:17

According to my anatomy teacher, the bacteria in Yakult are killed off by stomach acid before they reach the intestine. So their whole advertising pitch is BS.
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Re: My "Naturo" Friend

Post by Cartollomew » 04 Jul 2009, 16:20

Naoru wrote:According to my anatomy teacher, the bacteria in Yakult are killed off by stomach acid before they reach the intestine. So their whole advertising pitch is BS.
That wouldn't surprise me, but I haven't ever bothered to look into it myself.

Some lulz from the Yakult site:

Image
Yeh, because it takes so fucking long to drink a 30 mL shot of milk.
The ‘good’ bacteria are absolutely vital for digestive health.
"Absolutely vital" in the sense that you can't live without them? No.
"Absolutely vital" in the sense that they're absolutely vital to your shareholders? Yes.
A well-balanced gut flora is one with a healthy number of ‘good’ bacteria, which make it difficult for potentially harmful types to take up residence.
That's not well-balanced. That's just "lots of good and little or no bad". There's no "balance" to be had there, because there's no benefit (that anyone's mentioned) to having the bad stuff there at all.
So to help keep ‘good’ bacteria in charge of your gut, drink a bottle of Yakult each day.
There are more bacteria cells in our digestive system than there are cells that make up our bodies.
Are they seriously suggesting that a shot a day is going to do anything to a healthy gut?

Image
See all the shit that the blonde in the tight top has on that cutting board? If I were eating that and sleeping properly, I wouldn't be sick.
Holy crap, check out all the stuff in her fridge! Has she not heard of a crisper? It keeps your fruit crisp, you airhead!
Of course, these aren’t just our own opinions. The benefits of our little bottle have been known for years and are backed up by decades of research conducted both by Yakult and independent scientific and medical papers.

Research in the UK, Europe and Japan has confirmed that our unique strain of bacteria reaches the intestines alive in sufficient numbers to help maintain a beneficial balance of good bacteria.
Hmm. I mean, of course they're bound to say that, and they then follow up by not actually providing any of the reseach - their own or independant.

I found this interesting:
Lactobacilli belong to the lactic acid bacteria group, so named because they convert lactose (a sugar found in milk) and other sugars into lactic acid. In the gut, this helps to create an acidic environment – making it less comfortable for potentially harmful bacteria.
First up, what happens if you don't/can't drink much milk? Obviously it's a milk product, but I know people who could have 30mL a day and be okay, but any more than that would upset them.
Second, isn't it awfully convenient that this decrease in pH in your system is bad for bad bacteria, but doesn't seem to bother the other 800 million strains of good bacteria?
I suspect the "makes more acidic" argument is just guff - it might have an effect, but if it had enough of an effect to do what they say, it'd have a bad effect too (ala therapeutic magnets - only slightly less insane).

After reading around a bit, I can't find any conclusive papers or write ups on whether or not the damn things can survive stomach acid to reach the intestine - but I suspect at least some do.

It would strike me as a situation similar to vitamins - if you're unnaturally low on a particular vitamin, say you haven't eaten fruit and veg for a week, or you've been knocking back the nitrous a bit more than you should - then vitamin supplements (C and B12 in this case) are probably going to help you.
If you aren't low - which is to say, you're a normal human being, you're even roughly eating right and not taking stuff you shouldn't, then your expensive vitamin supplements are making you pee expensive urine (best case) or making you sick (worst case, ala vitamin A et al).

So this is probably why it's not uncommon for a doctor to tell someone to eat yogurt or swill some festering probiotic cow juice when they're running a course of antibiotics; the ABs kill off a hell of a lot of bacteria in your system, generally without prejudice, and the PBs will supply enough of a starter culture (in an environment free of competition) to make you feel a bit better in the tummy.

Of course, I could be talking out my ass, but this sounds a lot more sensible than "omg, the flora in your gut informs your immune system and makes it stronger!". Honestly, if my immune system were much "stronger" than it is, it'd start attacking my own organs. It's just as well Boost Juice is full of fruit and shite.
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