Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

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Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Johnnyrico » 24 Dec 2008, 12:05

well its interesting, if you listen to Very Loud music for a short period of time (say a bus trip), and compare that to someone who wears earphones at a moderate/low volume for an extended period at time (say a day at work). They actually do the same damage to your ears

Not many people realise that listening to isolating music, even at low volumes can be damaging.
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Re: Tag - 6 Thinks that I hate

Post by Cartollomew » 24 Dec 2008, 12:27

Johnnyrico wrote:...Very Loud music for a short period of time (say a bus trip), and compare that to someone who wears earphones at a moderate/low volume...
I'd be interested to see studies for these - also a metric for "loud" vs "moderate/low".

Roughly: Canalphones are worse than ear phones are worse than headphones are worse than speakers. For various values of "worse". For "average" use (whatever that is).
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Re: Tag - 6 Thinks that I hate

Post by Johnnyrico » 24 Dec 2008, 12:31

i'll see if i can look it up, although when i read it, it was in a peavey bass amp manual from while ago.
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Cartollomew » 24 Dec 2008, 13:23

I had a pretty lazy search around, but I can't find any solid studies, only articles making reference.

A couple of them have mentioned "110-120 dB for over an hour a day will do damage!", but if you're listening to headphones at ~110dB, you may as well be at a rock concert or in a night club (both places where I wear ear plugs).

The study they've been talking about (Northwestern University? No idea) also mentions a completely fucking useless "60/60 rule", where they say you should listen on 60% volume for an hour a day max.

Even for a rule of thumb, that's way too vague and unhelpful.

I suspect the "ZOMG HEADPHONES ARE KILLING OUR CHILDREN!" cries are more because people just plain turn shit up "too loud".
Once you've done damage to your ears, you'll be more likely to crank it further, which only makes things worse.

For me, the whole point of head/ear/canal phones is that they're pleasantly listenable at very low dB levels (again, YMMV - audio volume is freakin' hard to measure, visualise and discuss at the best of times).

Edit:
Oh snap, just found something more useful:

http://www.headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm
Not hard science, but bits are based on existing reports and recommendations, and others are reasonable assumptions, by my measure at least.
In loudspeaker reproduction, sounds must travel several feet before reaching the listener's ears. By the time they arrive, a portion of the high frequencies have been absorbed by the air. Low frequencies are not absorbed as much, but they are more felt through bone conduction than actually heard. With headphones, the ears hear all frequencies without any attenuation, because the transducers are literally pressed against them. Thus, when listening to headphones at the same effective volume level as loudspeakers, headphones may still transmit louder high frequencies that are more likely to cause hearing damage.
^Makes sense. We tend to lose upper frequency hearing as we go, and this doesn't help matters. Strike one for the phones.

Also of note:
Another hearing phenomenon that seems to be more noticeable with headphones is a decreasing sensitivity to sound levels over time, as the ears adapt to loud sounds.
Keyword is "adapt". This is misused.
Any time your ears are "getting used" to a volume which once felt a little too high, or at the threshold of what you could handle, you have done damage to your ears.
Again, I wish I could cite something more solid, but meh.
Indoors in a quiet listening environment: According to the Airo study, listeners in a quiet room set headphone volumes at an average of 69 dB, a little less than the average sound level in a restaurant. With open-air headphones, the ability to hear normal conversation through the headphones is a good indicator that the volume level is safe. Because closed-ear headphones acoustically isolate the listener, normal conversation may not be audible when wearing these types of headphones. Instead, a safe volume level may be set by moving one earcup off and comparing the level in other earcup with that of normal conversation.
I'd like to think this is me, but without any even remotely accurate method of measurement, I can't honestly say.
However, if someone wanders up behind my desk at work, I've noticed they can't tell if I'm listening to music, or just have the phones in silently. That's something, at least.

So yeh, if you're the kind of person who thinks 90+ dB is "moderate" volume for your headphones, you're doing damage by listening more than a few hours a day.

But by my yardstick, 90+ dB qualifies for Very Loud.

/shrug
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Johnnyrico » 03 Jan 2009, 14:56

zomga we got keyloggedxzz
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Cartollomew » 19 Jan 2009, 11:40

Oh ffs:
Here's a steaming pile of BS.

It's not that he's a particularly poor writer - it's the quality of the content that fails hard here.

Here's their recommendation for HDMI cable purchases:
He also suggests you consider die-cast metal connectors, triple layers of cable shielding, copper-foil connector shielding and silver-plated conductors. We won’t get into the technical details here, but rest assured the result is a better image.
Oh, I see - because if you have a digital signal through a cheap cable, you'll get the exact same digital signal out the other end. Whereas with an expensive cable, you still get the exact same digital signal out the other end, but you feel smug and you don't have to strain your back lifting all that heavy money in your wallet.

I'll give you the skinny on digital cables guys (that's digital coax, toslink/optical, HDMI etc):
If you're getting a signal at all, it's as good as it gets. Shielding and higher quality gold connectors and thrice the thickness and voodoo ceremonies do exactly nothing for your signal.

If you're not getting a signal through, for whatever reason (possibly your cable is too long) then it's time to investigate why and see about addressing the problem from there.

Buying $300 a meter cables is probably not the most sensible solution. And it's exactly as functional as the $20 a meter solution (which is, frankly, still overpriced).
“Many people don’t want there to be a difference in cables, so to them, there is none,” says Sarkin. “I don’t like to spend money I don’t need to, but I have spent plenty to eke that extra performance out of my system. In fact, I have rediscovered my record collection using high-quality cable.”
This is exceptional woo - in fact, he has it all backwards.
If you want your diamond coated cable to make a difference, it will.
Dropping hundreds of dollars on something that should only cost a few bucks has the effect of you finding improvements where there are none - because you desperately want that wasted money to have been worth it.

It's how the audiophile industry gets off selling things at a 9000% markup to gullible people who don't know better.
Organizing cables is somewhat of a science—it’s called “dressing” your system. Disorganized cable can actually sound and look bad as cables can “interfere” with one another.
*argh*

For some cables - particularly the older style ones - this can be true. But seriously, if the cables are interfering with one another, it'll be very noticeable - unlistenable.

There's no good reason to go out and buy overpriced plastic stands to make your system look like it was built for a "special" person.
• The art of setting up a system properly can be complicated—especially if you don’t know what you are doing. If it’s too much, hire a custom installer or someone from your local audio-video store to come out and help you make sense of the tangle of wires behind your A/V rack.
TRADE SECRET TIME:
Match the colours on the cables to the colours of the sockets at the back.
For wired: Tuck the big mess of cables out of sight. Don't invite audiophiles to your house, or they may suffer cardiac arrest.
For optical/wireless: You don't have a big mess of cables to tuck out of sight. I guess you can commence the wankin'.
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Johnnyrico » 19 Jan 2009, 11:57

might have to disagree there cart, but this might be a different subject since it has to do with instrument cables.

but i use custom made cables for my amps, and signature fender cables for my instruments.

With regards to the instrument cables, there isnt really an audible differnce, that boils down to reliability. They are built a helluva lot tougher and wont let me down at a gig.

Amp cables are differnet tho, i honestly notice an audible diferent from generic brands.
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Cartollomew » 19 Jan 2009, 13:06

Re: Gig leads.

You want something that'll survive after the deadshit roadie wheels a six tonne speaker over it. That's understandable. You want something tough - that's not audio science, that's material science, and obviously something thicker and stronger is better for the job.

Re: Amp leads.
If it's a digital signal (and for instrument amps, it isn't - but for home theatre etc - usually what audiophiles beat off over, it often is), there is no audible difference. There just plain isn't.

If it's an analogue cable, there can be audio quality differences between the cheaper ones and more expensive ones - but honestly, unless there's some mega interference or it's wired into the mains or something, you can use bent coathangers to wire up your amp with no ill-effects.

I still wouldn't recommend it, though - and you're within your rights to shoot for something a little better (see thickness/toughness above also).

But the hilarious claims made by audiophiles about digital cables needing gold plating, or special shielding or whatever, are way out of line.

It carries the same ones and zeros whether it's plated with kryptonite or not - and if it doesn't, it won't work at all.
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Johnnyrico » 19 Jan 2009, 13:21

when i meant audible, i didnt mean sound better or worse.

Just that the custom cables use provide a louder, crisper sound than a generic brand

pretty sure im not swallowing a placebo
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Cartollomew » 19 Jan 2009, 13:46

Johnnyrico wrote:Just that the custom cables use provide a louder, crisper sound than a generic brand
I don't want to drag this out any further - since it's a hazy platform for us to argue anyway - but what constitutes a "crisp" sound differs from snake-oil cable vendor to cable vendor, as well as person to person. What's your definition in this case?

Additionally, I'd be somewhat concerned if one set of cables provided a "louder sound" over another - the cables are supposed to carry a signal without affecting the amplitude of said signal.

Now if there's something seriously wrong with the no-name brand cables, and the amplitude is dropping over the cable - then yes, you'll see a difference and those cables aren't even fit for sale.

But there's no way in hell there should be audible difference in perceived loudness between two cables of the same length.

And of course, there are plenty of good reasons to steer clear of cheaper cables in a stage environment, none of which have anything to do with audio quality (tearing, ripping, squashing, fraying, cutting - other "ing" words...)
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Philondra » 19 Jan 2009, 13:54

I can't really contribue much to this conversation other than point out that forget music, I can't even tell the difference between DVD-quality and Blu-ray quality images. Even on a huge ass plasma TV.

This caused my SO no end of consternation when we watched "Enchanted" on Saturday night.

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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Cartollomew » 19 Jan 2009, 14:51

Philondra wrote:I can't really contribue much to this conversation other than point out that forget music, I can't even tell the difference between DVD-quality and Blu-ray quality images. Even on a huge ass plasma TV.
You're not alone - it's really becoming quite ridiculous these days.

The difference between VHS and DVD was huge. The difference between SD video and HD video is far more subtle and, in my opinion, far less significant.

Again, a lot of people will bitch and moan about how much of a quality change it is, but is that quality change worth the (currently relatively high) cost of upgrading? When most* people can't even tell the difference?

...plus I have issues with Bluray and HDMI right from the get-go, from a technical/purity standpoint.

*"Most" is my opinion only - there's probably some study proving it though. There usually is.
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Mitra » 19 Jan 2009, 20:59

Cartollomew wrote:...plus I have issues with Bluray and HDMI right from the get-go, from a technical/purity standpoint.
oh do tell
do tell :-)
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by Cartollomew » 06 Jul 2009, 13:13

This seems as good a thread as any to mock audiophiles.

Oh wait, Dan already did.

I lol'd.
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Re: Zee Ear Plugs - Zhey do nothing! (split)

Post by midi » 06 Jul 2009, 13:30

Ever heard of Gunners Ear?

Stand next to this fucker with no hearing protection.
Image
It will make your ears rings for an hour.

And people bitch about loud music.

On the upside, they're pretty good at scaring the fuck out of 4WD clubs from 10km away.
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