Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

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Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Karjalan » 04 Jun 2010, 18:28

Potentially misleading thread titles aside, papers done by Astrobiologists in 2005 hypothesised two key signs/requirements that would indicate/facilitate lifeforms of an altogether different base than here on earth. Basically they calculated that there could be microbes which live off Hydrogen (much like we live off oxygen or plants CO2) and produce Methane. Anyway recent spectroscopy analysis from Nasa's Casini probe has found evidence on Saturn's moon Titan to support the basis of the 2005 papers.

Those unfamiliar with Titan, it's the largest Saturnian moon (second largest in the solar system, larger than Mercury lol), one of the only moons with a decent atmosphere and so far the only other place in the Solar system with a constant liquid state of matter (lakes/sea's of hydrocarbons, ethane/methane). It is the most Earth like world found so far, not in it's chemical makeup, but in its environmental processes. Rain, lakes, running water, smooth rounded rocks and even volcanism (ironically made of water ice instead of rocks/silicates), and a massively dense atmosphere. It is also extremely cold, obviously being so far from the Sun and too small to have a powerful internal energy source, but also in part due to it's anti greenhouse effect (lack of greenhouse gasses, and thick atmosphere/cloud cover reflecting the sunlight away from the surface).

Anyway enough jibber jabbering on my behalf, you can Wiki Titan and here be the links on the evidence hinting at (but in no way confirming) possible life.

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/newsrel ... e20100603/

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... -moon.html
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Johnnyrico » 04 Jun 2010, 19:49

wasnt there a crazy Ukrian(ian?) scientiest who wanted to strap rockets to the ass of titan, and haul ass just behind earth to bring it closer to the sun?

I still think that's a brilliant idea.
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Mews » 04 Jun 2010, 19:53

Johnnyrico wrote:wasnt there a crazy Ukrian(ian?) scientiest who wanted to strap rockets to the ass of titan, and haul ass just behind earth to bring it closer to the sun?

I still think that's a brilliant idea.
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Mitra » 04 Jun 2010, 20:08

mmmm a simulation of a similar occurance

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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Karjalan » 04 Jun 2010, 20:25

Isn't that a simulation of the interplanetary collision that formed the moon?

[edit] wow I didn't even read the title of the freaking video loooool
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Karjalan » 04 Jun 2010, 23:25

Johnnyrico wrote:wasnt there a crazy Ukrian(ian?) scientiest who wanted to strap rockets to the ass of titan, and haul ass just behind earth to bring it closer to the sun?

I still think that's a brilliant idea.
Welllll... with no Magnetosphere of it's own and no super massive Saturn to provide a conveniently large one that encompasses it, the solar wind would slowly but surely strip away it's atmosphere and leave it baren like Mars most likely. It's liquids would become gasses and it's "rock's" (which are water ice = cyrovolcanism) would become liquids/evaporate... I think it would probably become like a comet and leave a gigantic icy trail/tail, much like Pluto would if you did the same thing (that's part of the reason it's no longer a considered a planet).
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Perfectcell » 06 Jun 2010, 21:59

Wow, its cool to see people interested in this sort of stuff ^^ WTB MOAR

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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Karjalan » 07 Jun 2010, 15:26

Perfectcell wrote:Wow, its cool to see people interested in this sort of stuff ^^ WTB MOAR
If you mean the search for life, there's the other two icy moons Enceladus and Europa, both benefiting from their giant parent Planet's extreme gravity, giving them an "internal" energy source. The later around Jupiter and the other around Saturn. They both have an elliptical orbit which combined with the immense gravity of their respective planets stretches and compresses the moon much like our moon stretches our oceans and gives us tides... except they are solid ice (mostly). This heats up the centre of the moon and melts the layers of ice nearest the rocky core and there are massive oceans in both, possibly for over a billion years.
This information combined with the survey of chemicals on/in each moon shows strong evidence for life supporting mechanisms, there are many organic compounds in both, (organic compounds form naturally without necessarily meaning life, but are believed to be necessary for it)

As far as Mars goes, we now have solid proof that there is a lot of water ice buried under the surface, very shallow as well. It can't exist on the surface because it freezes and boils at the same time (due to the weak pressure and density of the atmosphere). There are also constant plumes of methane spewing forth from many locations, methane is naturally broken apart by the sun, so has to be produced, and can, as far as we know, only (largely) be produced by either geological, or biological means. Mars is more or less assumed to be geologically dead as it has many extinct volcanoes, and no real magnetic field, which is formed from a rotating molten (usually) iron core. This is also why it has such a weak/sparse atmosphere, the magnetic field stops the highly charged solar winds from interacting with the planet, and thus stripping away it's atmosphere (among radiation and other nasty things). Anyway, because Mars is small and far from the sun, it is believed that it lost too much heat into space and it's molten core froze over, thus it should theoretically be geologically dead.... MEANING that the methane is more likely to be coming from microbial life....

So yeah, that's all just spewed off the top of my head, it might not be 100% accurate, but it's more or less a brief look into the potential for life in the solar system... The potential for NON carbon based life on Titan was barely on the cards until recently. Which has a very exciting promise and would be a massive find.

Enceladus is extremely small and may not be the most likely place for life... it probably goes Europa, Mars, Enceladus, Titan at the moment if you were to rank them, obviously that would change as time goes on and we learn more.

Here is a picture comparing Enceladus to Titan (orbiting the same planet obviously :P)

Image
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Perfectcell » 08 Jun 2010, 12:52

I'm interested in anything about our universe and the uncomprehending vastness of space ^^ Though clearly i'm no expert at it i like to watch the stars and read as much as i can. Scientists have been predicting life on Titan for years now and its awesome to hear some evidence that makes this a real possibility.

Karj just out of curiosity what field do you work in?

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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Karjalan » 08 Jun 2010, 14:57

Perfectcell wrote:I'm interested in anything about our universe and the uncomprehending vastness of space ^^ Though clearly i'm no expert at it i like to watch the stars and read as much as i can. Scientists have been predicting life on Titan for years now and its awesome to hear some evidence that makes this a real possibility.

Karj just out of curiosity what field do you work in?
I don't :(, I'm aiming for Astronomy/AstroPhysics or some form of Biology/Neurology but I am at a crossroads where I haven't got a definite path yet and am just bumming around. I don't know if I won't to really put in the hard yards and do the Astronomy path, or pursue something else, and do some more hardcore amateur Astronomy, like get a good telescope, maybe join an astronomy club or something...

The whole life on Titan thing is exciting, but there is only abstract evidence to support the notion. At the moment we have no answer as to why the levels of Hydrogen are depleting so rapidly near the surface (the analogy was that there is a hose spouting hydrogen down towards the surface, but when you get there, there is much less than should be/none) it could be an unforeseen chemical process as opposed to the proposed methane based lifeforms gobbling it up. Titan is so far from the sun and it's unique dense atmosphere only increases the cold factor and leads to the most visibly earth like planet in the solar system, but it's make-up is so far from earth it's pretty extraordinary. It's funny that it's cryo-volcanism, that is "molten" water, spews out lava that if you stuck your hand in it, you would instantly freeze instead of burn >.<. Whereas Methane, which is a highly unstable, and thus flammable, gas on earth is in liquid form in rivers, lakes and oceans...
We've only sent 2 voyager drive by space crafts, one currently orbiting science laboratory (the entire Saturnian system, not just Titan) and one short lived probe that lost half of it's data because some noob forgot to turn it's 'A' switch on (it had an A and B switch for communicating with Cassini). So until we send more explorative missions I don't think we can possibly hope to know for certain...

On a side note, it would be an easier body to send man to in person, it is protected from many things that Mars is not. The main downside of course being the cold, but it has a much more stable atmosphere (no global dust storms/dust in general) pressure that won't boil you alive, and it is protected better from the suns radiation. I recall seeing somewhere that all you really need is a thermal suite (due to the ridiculous cold) and oxygen and you're good to explore.

I recommend a few shows for scientific info...
BBC's Wonder's of the Solar System (aired this year)
Carl Sagan's Cosmos (classic 80's series about the cosmos, the best info you can get even though some of it is unfortunately out of date)
PBS Nova/Nova Science Now has some great segments on space etc.
There is actually an ABC (aussie) solarsystem series going on right now, every Thursday. The Saturnian episode has come and gone but I think you can stream it for free online.
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Cartollomew » 08 Jun 2010, 15:51

Karjalan wrote:The Saturnian episode has come and gone but I think you can stream it for free online.
You have until this Thursday to watch the Saturn one on iView:
http://www.abc.net.au/iview/

If you're not in Aus, then you're probably out of luck though :-/

The series appears kind of cheesy, but after 5 minutes I found myself really getting into it.
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Karjalan » 08 Jun 2010, 16:17

It is cheese, it's taken on a whole "tourists guide to destination X" theme, but a lot of the information is sound, they talk to really highly ranked Astophysicists/otherspaceprofessionals in their interviews and have some decent graphics. They're all interesting so far, but it does have to be as non-professional friendly as possible to both get ratings, and get people that might view the whole matter as "way over their head" interested.

I was able to watch the whole lot last week and Saturn was the most recent one... so I'm not entirely sure why they would limit it to one week.
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Cartollomew » 08 Jun 2010, 16:56

The interviewees are exceptional.

There are times when I'd like them to make it a little clearer when we're watching actual footage and when we're watching simulations, but it's mostly obvious.
Karjalan wrote:I was able to watch the whole lot last week and Saturn was the most recent one... so I'm not entirely sure why they would limit it to one week.
Nah, the one last Thursday was Uranus/Neptune. Saturn was the week before.
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Karjalan » 08 Jun 2010, 18:16

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/voyage/default.htm

That's the site I use which has all the episodes, Mars and Jupiter included.

{edit}

Huh... I watched them all in the last few days, but now the first two are MIA... that sucks

You can also download mp4 versions of them, I wish I'd done that with the first 2 now >.<
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Re: Alternate forms of life on Titan? :O

Post by Karjalan » 08 Jun 2010, 23:07

Brief youtube bit about science/research it's funding, and the possibility of life on a few moons at TED.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUH3Qg8M ... MEyqBnfGtI
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P77SIn6c ... feature=iv
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