Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
Forum rules
RTFA is assumed - do not reply unless you've read the linked article.
RTFA is assumed - do not reply unless you've read the linked article.
I bring this up in light of the push for a new law allowing Female Circumcision in the US.
The brief video about the proposed law
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYSaUcG6 ... =recentlik
Brief video about what happens and the complications/results of circumcision (and why foreskin/clit hood are good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FcN3lT ... re=related
Long explanation from an MD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDh63jVk ... feature=iv
No wonder Porn stars are always circumcised and take so long to get off >.<... I thought they just had exceptional "thinking about sports" abilities.
The brief video about the proposed law
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYSaUcG6 ... =recentlik
Brief video about what happens and the complications/results of circumcision (and why foreskin/clit hood are good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FcN3lT ... re=related
Long explanation from an MD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDh63jVk ... feature=iv
No wonder Porn stars are always circumcised and take so long to get off >.<... I thought they just had exceptional "thinking about sports" abilities.
"2+2 is 4"
Barney, the Dinosaur
Barney, the Dinosaur
- Cartollomew
- I has a monocle (Site Admin)
- Posts:8805
- Joined:22 Aug 2006, 12:11
- Location:Perth
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
I wouldn't know... but the discussion on male circumcision still often merely comes down the preference. The World Health Org suggest that circumcision can help reduce the chances of catching HIV, but it's not really compelling enough to recommend it on those grounds alone.Karjalan wrote:No wonder Porn stars are always circumcised and take so long to get off >.<... I thought they just had exceptional "thinking about sports" abilities.
There are conflicting studies regarding various parts of the foreskin and the roles they play - such as the frenulum and its effect on orgasm, but there's still nothing conclusive afaik.
Female circumcision is pretty horrific though - I think you'd be hard pressed finding a doctor worth their salt who would ever suggest that it's a good idea.
Who do you think you are? If you'd stopped winning, you could have been the Biggest Loser, if you gave up, you could have been a Survivor, if you'd stopped reading Orwell, you could have been on Big Brother!
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
The later video is an MD talking about research he had done and I haven't checked out any research papers myself but supposedly they show that both the foreskin contains a significant amount of nerve endings (the pleasurable kind), and it's presence (as opposed to being circumcised) increases the sensitivity of the head of the penis. They were basically saying... sexual stimulation on a circumcised male won't feel as good as a non circumcised male.
Which leads to the following question... How moral/amoral is removing this particular part of the body (or any for that matter) without the owners consent, and before he is knowledgeable or of age enough to make an informed decision? I mean people these days do just accept it as common practice and don't really bat an eye... maybe they make a joke or two, and fob it off as "well they haven't known life as anything different".... But then you could say the same for the people who would drug then cut of their sons testicles before they reach puberty so that they would have an amazing soprano voice all their life.
It changes the way someone experiences their life in an irreversible way without their consent.
Also on the female side of things there are differing forms of female circumcision. There is simply removing the clitoral hood (essentially the female foreskin) which is about as "morally questionable" as male circumcision... and then there is just downright mutilation. Unfortunately in the more... primitive... cultures that practice this, the latter is usually the case.
It sickens me, especially when you read about it first hand from someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Theo van Gogh's partner in the movie critical of Islamic treatment of women that ultimately lead to his murder (Subversion). She talks about how her father did not want her to be circumcised(which was the Islamic tradition where she grew up, Somalia), but when he was detained as a "political prisoner" her grandmother sent her away to get the "circumcision"... which to be blunt is mutilation. Not only against her own will, but against her fathers.
I don't think any part of the human body should ever be tampered with at all without consent from the person themselves and even then after they have learned the full extent of what will happen as a result. I'm pretty sure if in the Jewish community they waited until the bar mitzvah (12-13 years old) when they become "responsible for their own actions" would be the appropriate time to put it on the table, (heh double entendre) and let them weigh it up... the answer would largely be "no thanks".... but even then it would probably be "do it, or be banished from the religion/community and suffer in hell for all eternity" which seems to be the general trend for the illusion of free will in most religions.
I didn't want to ramble, and I did... SIGH, my apologies.
Which leads to the following question... How moral/amoral is removing this particular part of the body (or any for that matter) without the owners consent, and before he is knowledgeable or of age enough to make an informed decision? I mean people these days do just accept it as common practice and don't really bat an eye... maybe they make a joke or two, and fob it off as "well they haven't known life as anything different".... But then you could say the same for the people who would drug then cut of their sons testicles before they reach puberty so that they would have an amazing soprano voice all their life.
It changes the way someone experiences their life in an irreversible way without their consent.
Also on the female side of things there are differing forms of female circumcision. There is simply removing the clitoral hood (essentially the female foreskin) which is about as "morally questionable" as male circumcision... and then there is just downright mutilation. Unfortunately in the more... primitive... cultures that practice this, the latter is usually the case.
It sickens me, especially when you read about it first hand from someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Theo van Gogh's partner in the movie critical of Islamic treatment of women that ultimately lead to his murder (Subversion). She talks about how her father did not want her to be circumcised(which was the Islamic tradition where she grew up, Somalia), but when he was detained as a "political prisoner" her grandmother sent her away to get the "circumcision"... which to be blunt is mutilation. Not only against her own will, but against her fathers.
I don't think any part of the human body should ever be tampered with at all without consent from the person themselves and even then after they have learned the full extent of what will happen as a result. I'm pretty sure if in the Jewish community they waited until the bar mitzvah (12-13 years old) when they become "responsible for their own actions" would be the appropriate time to put it on the table, (heh double entendre) and let them weigh it up... the answer would largely be "no thanks".... but even then it would probably be "do it, or be banished from the religion/community and suffer in hell for all eternity" which seems to be the general trend for the illusion of free will in most religions.
I didn't want to ramble, and I did... SIGH, my apologies.
"2+2 is 4"
Barney, the Dinosaur
Barney, the Dinosaur
- Cartollomew
- I has a monocle (Site Admin)
- Posts:8805
- Joined:22 Aug 2006, 12:11
- Location:Perth
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
Gross misrepresentations of the Jewish faith in today's society aside... circumcision among adults is not as uncommon as you'd think.
Furthermore there are cases of "frenulum breve" (the connecting tissue from glans to foreskin is too short to comfortably sustain an erection) which may necessitate altering or severing it, or removing the foreskin in order to even enjoy sex; obviously that's a medical condition, and doesn't address the ritual use of circumcision in infants, but it's something that goes largely unknown (probably because guys typically don't discuss this stuff honestly and openly).
The trouble I have with the anti-circumcision lobby is that they're extremely rabid and they tend to use the same dirty tricks as the anti-vaccination lobby and the climate change denialists.
I'm loathe to take anyone seriously if they choose to use bad science when taking an aggressive stance - I'd need to look more into it, but I don't think the arguments relating to nerve endings are as significant as they make them out to be.
I've no doubt there have been studies on grown men who've had the procedure performed for various reasons, and it'd be very interesting to see what feedback they have. Someone(TM) should probably look that up.
WRT female circumcision:
I had not heard of removal of just the clitoral hood as being typical of FC; it was my understanding that the term always referred to a clitoridectomy, or removal of both the hood and the clitoris (equivalent to the removal of the head or glans of the penis in males and therefore not really circumcision at all, which is why it's often referred to as mutilation). Are there any cultures practicing hood removal only?
Just as a by-the-by, I was surprised to find that my fiance had had her ears pierced almost before she could be aware of it, and has had to wear earrings ever since to make sure the holes don't close up. When I suggested that that was probably unnecessary and that if I had a daughter I'd hold off getting her ears pierced until she was at least old enough to ask for it, she passionately defended the practice and I shut the hell up.
It's an interesting issue, but I can't see that there's a clearly correct stance.
Furthermore there are cases of "frenulum breve" (the connecting tissue from glans to foreskin is too short to comfortably sustain an erection) which may necessitate altering or severing it, or removing the foreskin in order to even enjoy sex; obviously that's a medical condition, and doesn't address the ritual use of circumcision in infants, but it's something that goes largely unknown (probably because guys typically don't discuss this stuff honestly and openly).
The trouble I have with the anti-circumcision lobby is that they're extremely rabid and they tend to use the same dirty tricks as the anti-vaccination lobby and the climate change denialists.
I'm loathe to take anyone seriously if they choose to use bad science when taking an aggressive stance - I'd need to look more into it, but I don't think the arguments relating to nerve endings are as significant as they make them out to be.
I've no doubt there have been studies on grown men who've had the procedure performed for various reasons, and it'd be very interesting to see what feedback they have. Someone(TM) should probably look that up.
WRT female circumcision:
I had not heard of removal of just the clitoral hood as being typical of FC; it was my understanding that the term always referred to a clitoridectomy, or removal of both the hood and the clitoris (equivalent to the removal of the head or glans of the penis in males and therefore not really circumcision at all, which is why it's often referred to as mutilation). Are there any cultures practicing hood removal only?
Just as a by-the-by, I was surprised to find that my fiance had had her ears pierced almost before she could be aware of it, and has had to wear earrings ever since to make sure the holes don't close up. When I suggested that that was probably unnecessary and that if I had a daughter I'd hold off getting her ears pierced until she was at least old enough to ask for it, she passionately defended the practice and I shut the hell up.
It's an interesting issue, but I can't see that there's a clearly correct stance.
Who do you think you are? If you'd stopped winning, you could have been the Biggest Loser, if you gave up, you could have been a Survivor, if you'd stopped reading Orwell, you could have been on Big Brother!
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
Oh I don't think it is something that should be outlawed entirely. I am aware there are instances where it is almost medically necessary to prevent damage/deformity and/or especially discomfort, of course some people DO opt for it as an adult. I wouldn't liken what I'm talking about to climate change denialists, creationists or people against vaccine, more like how you look at breast implants. Some people lose a breast (to cancer or other injury) some people develop nothing much beyond "mosquito bites" and some people have mental health issues related to breast size, but they don't allow 6 year olds to get breast implants in order to win a little miss beauty pageant.
It's not something that should/has to be outlawed, all I am suggesting is that
A) the act should not be performed without someone's consent (including not being of sufficient age)
B) there should be a clear outline of information as to the benefits
C) there should be a clear outline of information as to the negative effects, including that it is largely impossible to reverse.
Both of my parents being medical doctors we have a lot of their colleagues around for "parties"... that is middle aged/classed doctors (and other processionals) talking over a few drinks. Basically from the many various discussions that eventually unfolded I ascertained that, according to the doctor, there wasn't any clear medical reason for doing it, and MOST doctors would out right refuse to perform it on even willing adults. Some of the doctors went as far as to suggest it was used simply to discourage the "despicable sin of masturbation".... praise the age of KY.
I don't fully understand why certain cultures/religions do it. I don't want to get involved in something that doesn't have a whole lot to do with me on a level that requires extensive knowledge (in the religious/cultural side of things). In regards to your fiancée I'm not entirely sure why the issue is so pertinent that it warrants passionate defending, but then I haven't heard that side of the argument. It just doesn't seem necessary to not wait until someone is able to decide for themselves. But then the positives and negatives of early ear piercing probably aren't as big of a medical issue.
It's not something that should/has to be outlawed, all I am suggesting is that
A) the act should not be performed without someone's consent (including not being of sufficient age)
B) there should be a clear outline of information as to the benefits
C) there should be a clear outline of information as to the negative effects, including that it is largely impossible to reverse.
Both of my parents being medical doctors we have a lot of their colleagues around for "parties"... that is middle aged/classed doctors (and other processionals) talking over a few drinks. Basically from the many various discussions that eventually unfolded I ascertained that, according to the doctor, there wasn't any clear medical reason for doing it, and MOST doctors would out right refuse to perform it on even willing adults. Some of the doctors went as far as to suggest it was used simply to discourage the "despicable sin of masturbation".... praise the age of KY.
I don't fully understand why certain cultures/religions do it. I don't want to get involved in something that doesn't have a whole lot to do with me on a level that requires extensive knowledge (in the religious/cultural side of things). In regards to your fiancée I'm not entirely sure why the issue is so pertinent that it warrants passionate defending, but then I haven't heard that side of the argument. It just doesn't seem necessary to not wait until someone is able to decide for themselves. But then the positives and negatives of early ear piercing probably aren't as big of a medical issue.
"2+2 is 4"
Barney, the Dinosaur
Barney, the Dinosaur
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
Interesting point, Cart, if piercing then not why other 'interventions'?
Most likely peer pressure would have pushed your friend to piercing anyway, very few girls (or boys these days) manage to resist it.
Most likely girls brought up to want circumcision would want it anyway - in a similar manner. It is amazing that it is the mothers who are so determined to have it done to their daugthers!
I am against it (as I am against piercing of any kind) but I would not drive it undergound as then it might be done by butchers.
I find very few women these days without holes in their ears and I often ponder why that is so since there are quite a few arguments against this. And the only argument for it seems vanity and tribal conformity.
As for male circumcision - it does not need to have religious aspects. I was asked whether I wanted my son done in a Canberra public hospital in 1981!
His father (Australian, not Jewish) had one, as did my father (Polish, Jewish). I refused and told them that my son could decide to have one when he grew up - he has not done so till now.
Most likely peer pressure would have pushed your friend to piercing anyway, very few girls (or boys these days) manage to resist it.
Most likely girls brought up to want circumcision would want it anyway - in a similar manner. It is amazing that it is the mothers who are so determined to have it done to their daugthers!
I am against it (as I am against piercing of any kind) but I would not drive it undergound as then it might be done by butchers.
I find very few women these days without holes in their ears and I often ponder why that is so since there are quite a few arguments against this. And the only argument for it seems vanity and tribal conformity.
As for male circumcision - it does not need to have religious aspects. I was asked whether I wanted my son done in a Canberra public hospital in 1981!
His father (Australian, not Jewish) had one, as did my father (Polish, Jewish). I refused and told them that my son could decide to have one when he grew up - he has not done so till now.
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
Not another canberrian?
Weirdly, my wife has forgone the earrings. She still has the holes, but the last time I saw her wearing anything was years ago.
I think back in the 70's/80's there was a medical reasoning for it that isn't around today? Was done to me and my family is in no way religious, so I can only assume it has a medical background. I'm also in the same camp as Alo; My boy will get to choose.
Weirdly, my wife has forgone the earrings. She still has the holes, but the last time I saw her wearing anything was years ago.
I think back in the 70's/80's there was a medical reasoning for it that isn't around today? Was done to me and my family is in no way religious, so I can only assume it has a medical background. I'm also in the same camp as Alo; My boy will get to choose.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ soak rifts or riot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
Choice is a wonderful thing.midi wrote:My boy will get to choose.
"2+2 is 4"
Barney, the Dinosaur
Barney, the Dinosaur
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
"frenulum breve"
sounds like a music term....
sounds like a music term....
"Life is no Nintendo game / But you lied again / Now you get to watch her leave / Out the window / Guess that's why they call it window pane" -Eminem 'Love the way you lie' - Award for Excellence in Puns in the medium of Rap 2010
- Cartollomew
- I has a monocle (Site Admin)
- Posts:8805
- Joined:22 Aug 2006, 12:11
- Location:Perth
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
Mitra wrote:"frenulum breve"
sounds like a music term....
It means literally "short bowstring", so it could well be
![Razz :-P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
Who do you think you are? If you'd stopped winning, you could have been the Biggest Loser, if you gave up, you could have been a Survivor, if you'd stopped reading Orwell, you could have been on Big Brother!
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
awesome band name for a string quartet...
"Life is no Nintendo game / But you lied again / Now you get to watch her leave / Out the window / Guess that's why they call it window pane" -Eminem 'Love the way you lie' - Award for Excellence in Puns in the medium of Rap 2010
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
A mum I met through a mothers group got her son circumcised. She faced strong outrage when asking midwives and doctors who to go to for the proceedure most telling her it was barbaric. She finally got it done after a lot of trouble to find someone to perform the proceedure and now her sons pee literally hits the ceiling if his naked. Thats reason enough to not get it done!!!
But I seriously don't know how anyone could hurt their child (even if they won't remember it) for something that may have a benefit when their much much older. Let them decide when their old enough to choose in my opinion. If it is to be forced I do believe the father should ultimately make the decision because their more likely to know how it affects them in the end. I find it hard enough to get Satori vaccinated, so definitely no ear piercing till she is old enough to make the decision.
But I seriously don't know how anyone could hurt their child (even if they won't remember it) for something that may have a benefit when their much much older. Let them decide when their old enough to choose in my opinion. If it is to be forced I do believe the father should ultimately make the decision because their more likely to know how it affects them in the end. I find it hard enough to get Satori vaccinated, so definitely no ear piercing till she is old enough to make the decision.
Caught a lite sneeze
Dreamed a little dream
Made my own pretty hate machine
Dreamed a little dream
Made my own pretty hate machine
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
I find it hard enough to get Satori vaccinated,
If whooping cough/malaise de jour is back by the time I have kids I will be very upset with people who don't vaccinate their kids.
"Life is no Nintendo game / But you lied again / Now you get to watch her leave / Out the window / Guess that's why they call it window pane" -Eminem 'Love the way you lie' - Award for Excellence in Puns in the medium of Rap 2010
Re: Circumcision is bad Mmmm'kay? (NSFW)
Please don't hesitate on vaccinations, the basis for doubt in them is usually based on flawed science.
Some brief video's about the subject
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6AJUWFXrBI
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9P80I96X4c
Some brief video's about the subject
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6AJUWFXrBI
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9P80I96X4c
"2+2 is 4"
Barney, the Dinosaur
Barney, the Dinosaur