VOLTS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!

[Mitra]

This article, I have little issue with; though we may come back to some of the hyperbole if there is time.

what I take issue with is Nine News's reporting of the incident. which sadly i cannot locate a transcript of. which insists the man getting Tasered (possibly tased) 28 times by 50,000 volts was the same as if he had been Tased once by 1,000,000 volts

firstly your math sucks channel Nine
28 x 50,000 = 1,400,000 volts anyway so you're actually lowballing your poor understanding however,

MOST importantly. Saying that 28 x 50,000 volt shocks is equivalent to 1 x 1,000,000 volt shocks is just WRONG
The difference between the 2 is the same as a man falling down 1 metre 28 times or 28 metres (the equivalent of ~10 storeys) just once, the first otion is definately going to hurt. The 2nd one will kill you.

oh look we have time

``The standard police issue has just under 200 discharges available in it. That's extremely high. How comfortable would you be if police were issued with weapons with 1000 rounds in it, or with pepper spray cannisters like fire extinguishers?''

they aren't getting 1000... i assume you mean bullets here so i'm just gonna say bullets... they're getting 200 discharges which is probably related related to the battery design. however as tasers fire out 2 probes to make the electrical connections, 2 non reusable probes.they would need a replacement cartridge for each of those 200 charges, and if we believe the article it takes ~30 charges to kill someone they could only kill 7 people on a single battery anyway. Cops glocks hold 15 rounds so their lethality is already 1/2 that of the standard pistol at the MOST.

ALSO stop exaggerating

Meanwhile, police Assistant Commissioner Ann Lewis and the police union are in dispute over why officers used guns, not Tasers, to stop another man at Rockhampton this week.
The Courier-Mail was told officers at the 24-hour siege were instructed to shoot rather than Taser the armed man, 32, because he suffered serious medical conditions and using a Taser could put his life in danger.

That's right bullets are much safer.

Assistant Commissioner Lewis, from Queensland's central region, said: "Because of the immediate threat, a Taser was not the most appropriate course of action and they chose the firearm."
The man had breached a domestic violence order and ignored police instructions to drop his weapons, including a 40cm machete.
When the man refused to do so the officers used their guns.

But a police union spokesman hit back at Ms Lewis's comments, saying she was "completely incorrect".
"Our officers were advised by senior officers that they were not to use Tasers because of the medical condition," he said.
"I don't know where she has got her information from but it's clearly incorrect."

Ms Lewis also said there was a possibility an officer may have been hit if a Taser had been used on the Rockhampton man, which forced police to use guns on him.

Right so bullets are magically less likely to hit police???

if a taser is going to hit someone a bullet is going to hit someone.

SHEER LUNACY

GOODNIGHT

[Cartollomew]

BUT VOLTS ARE BAD!

MANY VOLTS!

EVERY TIME YOU ARE HIT WITH A VOLTS, YOU ARE HURT A BIT MORE! AND ALL THOSE VOLTS ADD UP UNTIL YOU DIE!

...

Using "volts" as a measure for how dangerous something is is completely stupid anyway... am I the only one who learned anything from the Van Der Graaf/hair on end thing in primary school?

But, yeh... the whole uproar surrounding this story shits me too...

To put it in news.com.au Moron Lists:

*Crazy, Naked Guy is covered in blood
*Has a knife
*Refuses to do what cops say
*Cops use pepper spray, ineffective
*Cops use taser
*Guy dies later

What do people want the fuzz to do? They tried pepper spray, the guy was obviously not in the mood for being incapacitated.

Should they have shot him?

Obviously not, given the quote above.

So what other options did they have? Get stabbed?

Seriously, it's not like they're going wild and tasering little girls for the hell of it; if a cop asks you to put down the knife and you threaten them with it, then you're gonna get the snot kicked out of you. Seriously.

The guy may have had psychological issues, but as far as I'm concerned that doesn't warrant healthy cops getting stabbed for it.

Edit:

Actually, the news article linked from that comic has some choice quotes:

About two weeks earlier, a first-grader was shot with a Taser at school when he threatened to cut his leg with a piece of broken glass, authorities said. The boy's family said he vomited after the jolt.

"If there's three officers, it's nothing to tell a 6-year-old holding a glass, if you feel threatened, 'Hey, here's a piece of candy, hey, here's a toy. Let the glass go,'" the boy's mother told CNN.

Sure, because a 6 year old threatening to cut their own leg isn't the creepiest thing I've ever heard...

...this is:

"There needs to be more in-depth study on using the Taser on children," Georgia Ayers said.

How do you propose we do that, Georgia? Got some kids you don't particularly like?

[Chappy]

ok being trained in this im going to put in my 2cents worth.

Police have set ROE (Rules Of Engagement) just like any one else holding a gun (Defence Force, security guards, ect)

they also have a very VERY strict "use of force procedure's) meaning u start with the least lethal option
1) talking the situation down

2) physical restraint ( hand cuffs, arm locks ect)

3)pepper spray, once used you are then required by law (in Australia any way) to hold the perps head under water... preferably running water to clean it out, (also pepper spray is supose to be sprayed above the eyes not in them so the spray then runs down into the eyse being more effective, not always easy to do when you are under the pressure in the situation where you need to use it.) also any one issued with pepper spray is subject to it in their training so any cop holding pepper spay has experienced it them self... trust me its not nice... i have been sprayed in training.

4)Taser (if avalible) not all units carry them... but note it is the second last option meaning shit has to be going bad to use it..

5) lethal force (shoot them in the chest) thats how the Australian police and defence force are trained you DO NOT pull out your side arm / rifle unless you intend to kill someone and the ONLY reason for this is if you fear YOUR life or the LIFE of someone you have sworn to protect (for police its any one in the community) is in danger.

so in saying that if someone is QQing that someone was hurt by the police IN ANY WAY it is only because they could NOT talk the situation down, could not restrain themand the pepper spray did not work ( as for some ppl affected by drugs do not feel the effect of pepper spry, also with police training you have to give warning UNLESS there is no time, you are not going to warn some one you will shoot them if the perp has or is in the actions to fire their weapon.

so here is a thought..... IF YOU DONT WANT TO GET FUCKED UP BY THE POLICE OBEY THE FUCKING LAW....
they wont do it for no reason... if they tell you to stop FUCKING stop..
if you dont the above article shows what happens...

IMO there are too manyy fucking do gooder fucks in this world having a go at any one doing their job....
if the cops use it in the wrong way and with out going through the above pros then your giving cops all over the world a bad name

[Takius]

You failed to identify a key flaw in your rant.

Channel 9 does not report news. It reports propaganda.

Also love the morbo feel to that post +1

[Tassia]

I always find it ironic that journalists/media call their reports, "stories".

[dukkha]

(Trying hard not to push/inflame the argument, but possibly failing)
I have serious issues with tasers, just because of the easily (and frequently) abused nature of non-lethal force. Now Australian police are a hell of a lot better than US police (who seem to be using tasers like they were a friendly handshake) but reports of their misuse shouldn't be ignored just because training is in place and there are supposedly strict guidelines. If those guidelines are to be maintained, then any time someone steps over them, they have to explain their reasoning or face serious consequences.

I live in the busiest nightlife area of the inner city. I see instances of police abuse regularly if I look out my window. No matter how much a person is struggling, unless they are attacking someone, there's no reason for cops to be kneeing them in the legs or body (the most common one I see). So the implication that if the cops hit someone they deserved it is ridiculous. That goes doubly for tasers. They may have a use, but if the 28 figure is even close to accurate then someone fucked up. Seriously. And they need to be held accountable.

Television news really isn't true journalism though and displaying such poor understanding of basic science is depressing.

[Cartollomew]

Sure; the cops in the article I linked who used the tasers on kids are most likely way out of line, and there needs to be an investigation into how and when police can use such devices.

But when a naked, bloody man is waving a knife at you, not responding to voice commands and impervious to pepper spray, what are they meant to do?

Police can't have carte blanche to just beat up anyone who doesn't do what they say, but at the same time, they can't just roll over and die when their lives are threatened. I'm all for reporting the instances of actual abuse, but this case doesn't seem to me to be even a gray area.

[Xact]

I was gonna buy a taser in Thailand, to actually use on the cunt selling them.

Nothing like coming around a corner and some retard letting off a taser like half a metre away from you, what a fucking knob.

[Dropdeadqt]

But when a naked, bloody man is waving a knife at you, not responding to voice commands and impervious to pepper spray, what are they meant to do?

http://home.insightbb.com/~dixon4/chainsaw.JPG

Obviously...

[Chappy]

there's no reason for cops to be kneeing them in the legs or body (the most common one I see). So the implication that if the cops hit someone they deserved it is ridiculous. That goes doubly for tasers.

the simple fact of police kneeing them in the legs or hitting an arm is for a reason, if the r trying to handle the person into a arm lock leg lock or restrain them in some way, if u lock your arm up it is very hard for someone to move it, same with legs if someone is trying to get you to walk away from something, and you drop your weight or lock your legs then it is hard (from a Police POV ) to get that person to move. a shap blow or blunt force blow to that area will get those muscles to react in one way or another making it hard for the person not to move.

Part of the training is you will tell the person to move that leg, if they dont a blunt force is applied to the area then the "request" is voiced again to move it with the "help" of the officer...

as much as the public want to think it is so the police will NOT hit, restrain, move you, arrest you, taser you shoot you for no given reason,
so to the public eyes a police officer kneeing someone to get them to move ( be it to get them away from danger to them- self and or the public) is police brutality, im sorry but i stand by my last call

OBEY THE FUCKING LAW and it wont happen to you,

yes there is some bad cops out there that should not be allowed to wear the uniform, there are some that should have been wiped off the ass of the thing that gave birth to it and thrown in the trash with the delivery gown, but there are a great deal of ppl that have no idea that the police is there to maintain some form of society.

IMO you can have our police system or Cuba's you choice... i know what one id rather...

and to inflame the situation. how is the form of the justice system in WA a fuckin COP and a good one at that, got injured in the line of work because some fuck head decided to tackle him to the ground and fucked his back completely putting him in a wheel chair, and what did the cop get... FUCKING NOTHING but a pension. now this is fucked as i got a lesser injury to my back in the defence force, in a training exersize with out the scum of the earth doing it to me, and i get more then this cop...

now i worked with this guy wen i was working for DOJ in WA in the courts and prison system at the Joondalup courts (northern suburbs of Perth) and he was not a cop to abuse his powers and so on.... now he has nothing... and how many ppl stood up for him how many news reports went out over that.. answer FUCK ALL

if you are stupid enough to resist arrest and or mouth off to the cops, hit / strike at the cops then you deserve more then a love tap on the legs.

also how many prisoners bite the inside of their mouths and spit the blood in the face of cops, prison guards and so on. ive had close friends in WA DOJ that now cant even get a root lil own work because these scum bags of the earth infected them with HIV, HEP and many other BBCD's the filthy fucks and do chan 9 do reports on that FUCK NO

so plz feel free to continue the thoughts of "police brutality" from them protecting them-selfs and the community (Thats YOU) taking the abuse so you dont have to then being questioned on how they do it

any way thats my QQ on it all

the only reason your not a cop is because you dont want that shit, well some one has to do it and this is the thanks we give them

try getting away with this shit in Cuba, Brazil, china, Iraq and so on, they have 2 options of policing, tell you to stop, arrest you while giving you the beating of your life then chop a limb off and or shoot you dead.

Australia is TOO FUCKING SOFT grow a pair of balls ppl or the rest of the world will continue to walk all over us, also do gooders trying to stop ppl doing their jobs DIAF

there done and said... lol enjoy

[Dropdeadqt]

I guess some of us just assume that the police follow the law and thus (for the most part anyway), what they do, they do because they are doing what they have been taught to do.

Diffuse the situation, apply persuasion, apply light force, apply medium force, apply deadly force.

I would like to assume that in any given situation involving police, that they are following those guidelines before just going off and tasering someone.

[Chappy]

The problem is that there are some bad cops giving the rest of them a bad name.

so you understand were im coming from

i was in the RAAF as a police officer also called MP the training we under-go is the same as the federal police, my goal from there was to join Interpol, a dream that was fucked over to an injury, now when a police officer receives an injury that stops them from preforming their duties we get a oh shit we broke you now fuck off, oh by the way here is a shitty pension and small payout that might get you through the next 12 months if your lucky,

its a dog eat dog world its them or you,
the difference is we have to follow guidlines crims dont thats why they are fucking CRIMS yet we get the short end of the stick as a fuck you why did you LEGALLY hit that person (following the policies and procedures) instead of letting him ILLEGALLY hit you? then arrested him for it?

[dukkha]

Just because our system is less flawed than another system doesn't make it good and doesn't make the other system the only possible alternative.

I don't expect cops to expose themselves or others to undue danger, but 28 times is ridiculous under any conditions. My understanding is that more than a couple of times is ridiculous under most conditions (that may be incorrect, fortunately I've never been tasered).

if you are stupid enough to resist arrest and or mouth off to the cops, hit / strike at the cops then you deserve more then a love tap on the legs.

If you hit a cop, you deserve the minimum level of force to safely take you down and make sure you are no longer a threat. Clearly that's hard to judge in a volatile situation, which is why police are given a lot of latitude, but if you are passively protesting by being hard to move or being a smart-arse, then assault is assault, whether it's by a normal person or a cop. The job sucks and no I would never do it, that doesn't mean I'm going to put blind trust in those that do.

[Chappy]

If you hit a cop, you deserve the minimum level of force to safely take you down and make sure you are no longer a threat.

that is the same for anyone not just a cop,

the only defence for self defence is that you used the min amount of force required to remove your self from danger.

now your also not getting all the facts as most news teams alway's leaves out other wise it wouldnt be news it would only be facts.. big difference there

now taser's / pepper spray / restraining locks all work well IF and big IF the subject is not under the effects of DRUGS, there was a guy in the US shott 23 times in the chest and was still standing under the effects of drugs reloading his revolver and shooting back at police, the last bullet to hit droped him cause it was to the head,

so if the person was under the effects of drugs and didnt feel and or the taser didnt have the desired effect on him and he was still a threat then it could very well have been justified, we dont know cause we wernt there.

there is always more to the story then that reported.

now im not saying that it was the correct thing to do,
but what would you have done?
you have no fucking idea cause you wernt there and you were not faced by the situation the police was, you snapp into you training mode, that you are trained to face under simulation, it still never has you ready for the real deal, when you face it you shit bricks.

[Cartollomew]

I don't expect cops to expose themselves or others to undue danger, but 28 times is ridiculous under any conditions. My understanding is that more than a couple of times is ridiculous under most conditions (that may be incorrect, fortunately I've never been tasered).

From http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0906/S00202.htm:

Regarding the issue of multiple Taser strikes:
"Some individuals are so fired up and violent that it takes more than one Taser strike to take them down and keep them down. There may be operational issues there that the police need to address - whether the first strike didn't make good contact or the cable broke etc. If they used manual restraint and pepper spray first it indicates that they did not go straight in with a high level of force and suggests that they did everything they could before using the Taser. Someone in the excited delirium state can behave like a wild animal and is extremely difficult to restrain."

Of course, this pretty much just states the obvious, and we're not any closer to knowing whether or not the specific number of discharges used was excessive.

Points to consider:
*The weapon was fired 28 times. But we don't know if it was fired 28 times at the guy, how many times it made contact, how many times it had an effect.
*The dude firing the taser would've been experiencing an adrenaline rush, and if he's anything like me, pretty much scared witless. He could have fired it more than he should have due to this, he could have fired it more than he should have by accident.
*They're investigating whether or not the weapon was malfunctioning. That could be serious, or it could be PR. If it's the latter, that's pretty weak, but not unexpected.

For me, what it comes down to is this: If the pepper spray didn't work and the next step, the taser, didn't work, their only other option would have been to use a gun, and to shoot to kill. If I were in that scenario, I'd make damn sure I'd exhausted my other options before going down the lethal avenue.

I can't advocate violence, but geez, I can't see that they had a lot of choice in this case.

Edit:

On a slightly lighter note, fire this headline editor:

How do Tasers in Queensland Make You Feel?

Shocked?