There is no hope for the human race

[Evilelmo]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=794840


Corrupt Chinese officials, policeman and health-industry workers harvesting the dead organs of prisoners... for their own personal profit. Executions are expected to rise from 1715 to 10,000 a year with 68 capital punishment crimes including tax evasion.

[Mitra]

I'm sorry but when you are talking about such a large population i find it harder to be outraged.

Population of China= 1,330,044,544

1715/1,330,044,544 = 0.00013% of the population
10,000/1,330,044,544 = 0.00075% of the population

In 2008, a total of 265,204 road traffic accidents occurred in China, with 73,484 people killed, 304,919 injured and a direct property loss of 1.01 billion yuan, down by 62,005 or 19%, 8,165 or 10%, 75,523 or 20%, and 190 million yuan or 15.8% year on year, respectively, including 1,290 road traffic accidents with each causing a death toll of over 3 (down by 190 or 12.9% year on year), 250 accidents with each inflicting a death toll of over 5 (down by 17 or 6.4% year on year), and 29 extraordinarily serious accidents with each causing a death toll of over 10 (up by 3 year on year). The traffic accident death rate by per ten thousand cars is 4.3, down by 0.8 as compared with the same period of last year.

given that 8165 fewer people were killed on their roads it's only about an increase of 120 deaths...and at least this time they were probably criminals or at least disliked by someone

[Evilelmo]

given that 8165 fewer people were killed on their roads it's only about an increase of 120 deaths...and at least this time they were probably criminals or at least disliked by someone

That's not the point, the point is there are corrupt officials harvesting the organs of these prisoners for their own private benefit. Shouldn't donating your body be your own right? Or do prisoners have no rights regarding their body once they become prisoners? Or that the fact they'd be sentencing more people to death row because they'd have more financial gain? OR that it's been made aware and approved by the country?


Using your logic, Just because they're a country with high population it's okay to mistreat people? The number of deaths is not the issue, it's the way they treat their people.

10,000/1715 = 5.83

That's an 583% increase in death sentences a year because of corrupt governing officials in China. We've also neglected to mention that this has only recently been introduced. A statewide acceptance of malpractice will only continue to encourage this practice further. With 68 criminal offenses including tax evasion these figures will only continue to scale upwards.

Harvesting body parts for personal financial gain is a blatant violation of human rights. Just because they're criminals doesn't mean it's okay to treat them like like such. Many of capital-punishment offenses aren't even violent, they include :

- fraud
- embezzlement
- bribery
- prostitution
- arson
- tax evasion

No one deserves to have their rights taken away legally by a system that is supposed to protect their people.




Hell, why do I care? I don't even like China

[Johnnyrico]

i must be missing something here, if they are on death row, then what good is having their organs going to waste. If anything this would increase the standard of living (in prisons) to keep those vital organs in such 'pristine' shape.

or did i read it incorrectly?

[Karjalan]

There has never been hope for the human race. From burning witches, sacrificing virgins, torture, rape, genocide, religious extremism.... none of this is new, it's been around as long as records have. If anything it's BETTER now.... but yeah I have to agree with rico, harvesting death row inmates organs is win win really...

[Xact]

It would be win win if the organs where going onto a registered list to help genuine people who are waiting for organs.

Chances are very high that this isn't happening, they would be harvested and placed on the black market at top dollar, harvesting organs for money = fail.

[Mews]

Elmo's looking at it from the point of human rights; Each individual has the right to decide what happens to their physical body once deceased. Human rights shouldn't be compromised under any circumstances. This might also have something to do with Elmo's stance on capital punishment.

The problem here is the bold statement for a thread title. Seriously? That's an outrageous claim and basing it on Chinas isolated and non-western society alongside the fact the alleged crimes havn't even been proven yet and assuming that there is a link between the harvesting business and capital punishment convictions are said to rise. I blame ninemsn here, erroneously putting the two statements in the same article implies they're connected some how.

There's two seperate issues here; Body harvesting and the rise in death penalties. Elmo flip flops from each issue to the next it makes me dizzy. Pick one and stick to it to avoid confusion.

Beyond that, assuming the perpetrators are guilty, human greed never surprises me. Any and all sorts of avenues are exploited to make a personal gain. This is just one of them.

I also find it amusing that Elmo implies that violent crimes are justification for capital punishment and then the subsequent body looting. Apparently the harvesters should have morals and only make money off the "bad" criminals.

[Dropdeadqt]

Sort of a 3fold issue.

The first being that Chinese officials are driving execution vans around... and I guess picking up criminals from... their homes O_o? executing them in the van (lawfully I guess, but humanitarians are crying about it), harvesting the valuable organs then having the body delivered to a crematorium.

The second being that, I would guess, that the harvesting part is not endorsed by the government and is something the people in the vans are organizing themselves to then sell the organs on the black market, rather than having them put on the national organ register.

The third being that there are 68 crimes, of which one is tax evasion, that are punishable by execution. This apparently seems to be in some way promoting an increase in executions. I don't quite understand this one, can anyone explain this one too me? Is it because they can do it in the vans now? Did they let people get off more easily before the vans because it was a bitch to cap them in prison?

[Cartollomew]

Summary (as based on TFA):

Previously, China would execute people via gunshot.
Despite the fact that (in my opinion) it is laughable to even consider capital punishment within the context of human rights, there are standards which are expected to be upheld - examination of the body to ensure no abuse occurred prior to execution, "proper" treatment of the corpse afterward etc etc.
Given China doesn't really view human rights expectations (as laid down by "the rest of the world") as even being guidelines, the whole proper process of execution was deemed inefficient. The mobile units are a solution to that.
The article dances around a few concepts without outright saying them (hearsay in italics) -
1) The vans allow harvesting of organs without any official record that it has happened
2) The number of offences resulting in a death sentence have been increased in order to harvest more organs
3) The organs are used in transplants having been sold on the black market.

None of the stuff in italics was stated or proven - if it is true, then yeh, that's pretty goddamn abhorrent.

Note however, this article on the same subject:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/ ... 92598.html

...which appears to be less sensational. While still pretty distasteful to me, there's no question of organ harvesting or a less transparent system.
Curiously, the article suggests that the vans would actually pick up the prisoners from the court, which is fucking hardcore - that's one hell of a fast system.

My main concern (with China at all), is the complete lack of transparency - how many executions are there actually carried out? Nobody knows. Whether or not government officials are selling organs on the black market is not really relevant - the fact is they could be and nobody would know.
This is what is wrong with China's current system of government, despite the fact that most of the population is happy with it - there's no real need for accountability.

Also:
Wiki article on Execution Vans.

[Karjalan]

There's something really eerie and unsettling about a mobile death squad van for executions....

I can imagine the advertisements "we'll be there within 30 minutes, or your fredom back"

[Cartollomew]

There's something really eerie and unsettling about a mobile death squad van for executions....

I can imagine the advertisements "we'll be there within 30 minutes, or your fredom back"

I'm against capital punishment altogether, but yeh, the lack of transparency certainly makes me uncomfortable.

WRT the title of this thread, it's obviously hyperbole - I don't think Elmo is suggesting we use China as our yardstick for humanity.

[Mitra]

I've always been under the impression that executions in china were very swift regardless so these mobile vans will hopefully make it less painful (/more humane) for everybody.

additionally by making tax evasion a crime punishable by death manufacturing costs will rise in china as the greedy business men try to keep their current standard of living- thus saving local jobs.

[Kayleb]

this is a good topic, enjoyed the read, although people should read through the wiki (however reliable) on "mobile execution units" aka Death vans.

thanks for a different point of view on the world... however twisted

[Mews]

There's something really eerie and unsettling about a mobile death squad van for executions....

I can imagine the advertisements "we'll be there within 30 minutes, or your fredom back"

I'm against capital punishment altogether, but yeh, the lack of transparency certainly makes me uncomfortable.

WRT the title of this thread, it's obviously hyperbole - I don't think Elmo is suggesting we use China as our yardstick for humanity.

Besides there's always hope with the human mind can conceptualise things like deep fried mars bar and chocolate covered bacon.

[Cartollomew]

additionally by making tax evasion a crime punishable by death manufacturing costs will rise in china as the greedy business men try to keep their current standard of living- thus saving local jobs.

If you aren't careful, Mitra, your tongue is going to shoot right out the side of your face.