Ignore your instinct - think ffs

[Karjalan]

Haha good old hitch hikers...

Yeah well it's not specific to religion and it's not an "this is the case for every religion/other", it's not specific to anythign really, religion is just the most obvious/simple example... That's why I was talking about like vegitarians and vegans or whatever... It's more that people have a way of life that they enjoy or they think is better then either their old way or other people's ways... some of these people do constructive things, like release a book which might have specific statistics, researched information and viable evidence to say "eating only vegitables is better for you than eating meat and veg, but that doens't mean meat is bad"... But then often I see people (I like to call them wanabee vegitarians), will do it cause they think it makes them better people and they may insult you for eating meat and have that whole "hollier than though" attitude and put up false/contradicting arguments to make themselves seem more "righteous"... Like "fur/chopping down tree's is murder"... Well if you REALLY beleieve that get naked, and never eat anything except dirt/sand again... otherwise you're basically a hypocrite.

[Cartollomew]

I passively attack religion in an online debate because of things I don't agree with, but I mostely keep it all internal, I don't tell people they are wrong, I don't tell them to change, really I don't think I could do much even if I wanted to.... But I still feel/think in those sorts of ways. And of course there's always exceptions.

But you're actively getting upset about religions in a very broad manner, in a thread which actually has surprisingly little to do with religion at all, and certainly isn't debating the merits or otherwise of an evangelical religious approach.

I don't know how deep/specific your education on theology or philosophy is, but if you're as upset as you appear here, I really do strongly recommend reading up on faith - even if only from an anthropological angle (why people have faith, historical progressions and trends in faith, significance of ritual to society and individuals), but particularly the differences between religions and denominations, mysticism and dogma, and any differences between the major faiths (many and varied, even among denominations of the same religion, but usually the broad details bear striking similarities).

Understanding something is the first step in "beating" it - otherwise you're left with an impotent frustration.

Further, and relevant to the topic of this thread:
When you read/see something that doesn't make any sense, dig deeper.
It may well be that the people involved are just incredibly stupid or illogical.

But I've often found that things that just don't make sense have been poorly communicated or badly reported - this lack of decent communication can often result in entirely unnecessarily conflict.

If people ignored their knee-jerk reaction and thought before they formed an opinion/reaction/posse, things would be a damn sight better than they are. [citation needed]

PS

If you don't understand something, and it causes internal irritation - get it out. Post here, in the rantarium, if you can't find somewhere better.
It may be that all you'll get are people agreeing with you, or you may actually get healthy debate, which is good too.
Don't bottle this stuff up, work it out.
Your ability to approach these things sensibly is part of what makes you different to the crazy chest fondling evangelists.

[Karjalan]

Yeah I see what you're saying, and I think what i'm saying is comming off wrong... like I don't hate religion, I don't think it shouldn't exist and I don't think it's fundamentally flawed.... I just don't like how often it is used as an excuse to impose ones will on another, and[*] as I said before it's not specifically about religion, it's all things in general. "The world is flat, believe it or i'll kill you and torture your family"... It is a very broad bitch, and I guess this is more attuned to the rantarium, and it may come across as a deep desired hate of religion, which is not the case, it's just general frustrations at people and they way they impose their way/will on others, religion (and not all religion and not all people from certain religions just a broad general term) just happens to be the most prominent/obvious example.

There's probably a better word than "religion" for what I mean and I've probably used incorrect termanology for what I am trying to say in some places, I should in fact probably do more research on this as well >.<, but the key principal is the same....

I also admit to TLDR the link you posted I just skimmed over the replies.... I blame inherrent tiredness combined with excessive household chores and far too much coffee to keep me afloat.

[Cartollomew]

I also admit to TLDR the link you posted I just skimmed over the replies.... I blame inherrent tiredness combined with excessive household chores and far too much coffee to keep me afloat.

All good, I figured that'd be it

Reckon you could do my laundry while you're at it?

[Karjalan]

Just did my aunties laundry... as comfortable as I am with my sexuality and how open I am, in what is probably an overimposing way to most people, sexually..... I find it deeply disturbing sorting through my aunties panties/bra's >.<

[Mews]

I think Karj just has a problem with other people imposing their ideas/opinion upon him without provocation, and in todays society the groups who do this are usually religious, intolerant, lead alternative life styles (vegetarianism) and/or are extremists, plus the people imposing often don't realise they're REALLY getting into peoples personal space when they do this. [Citation needed]

BACK to the OP;

That study is defunct.

It's basically a reaction test for syntax with scientific statements. It's a reflex thing and often 3-5 seconds to determine the implication of a statement, particularly if the wording is odd or not common, you can very easily pick the wrong answer. It's more a test on reading skill and comprehension than scientific knowledge/logic.

For example, I see "Sun, flower, photosynthesis" and think yes that's true. Then I re-read the statement (The Sun makes light so that plants can photosynthesise) and realise it's false.

What a crock of shit. These guys need to pull finger, 'cause I just KNOW these kinds of things are going to be cited at some important juncture and anyone with half a brain will just /facepalm.

[Cartollomew]

What a crock of shit. These guys need to pull finger, 'cause I just KNOW these kinds of things are going to be cited at some important juncture and anyone with half a brain will just /facepalm.

A-yep, happens a lot. Most recently:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... ancer.html

The Daily Mail is hardly a bastion of scientific fact, but the scientist who wrote the original report opinion piece is also batshit insane.

I think Karj just has a problem with other people imposing their ideas/opinion upon him without provocation, and in todays society the groups who do this are usually religious, intolerant, lead alternative life styles (vegetarianism) and/or are extremists, plus the people imposing often don't realise they're REALLY getting into peoples personal space when they do this. [Citation needed]

Citation most certainly needed.

But I understand it must feel that way sometimes - for those on the other side of the fence, I daresay it feels just as oppressive from time to time, to live in a secular society (Karj's suggestion of a religious state notwithstanding).

[Mews]

I read the title from your new link Cart and just crossed it off. I know the internet was made for ridiculous claims (and porn) but seriously there has to be a limit, or some kind of stabby-at-your-face-through-the-computer-screen type of installation implemented on all douchebag owned computers.

I'm just use to Karj's way of unexplaining himself and what he's trying to say. I do it too sometimes.

The problem with the people on the other side of the fence is they're not me, so I don't really give a shit what they do so long as they stay away from me... or present what they have to say in a logical and proper manner. If they can't manage that then they don't deserve my attention/understandment.

[Karjalan]

heh yep, I have a terribad way of explaining myself and often end up either miss interpretted or only half understood... It's frustrating and why I usually try to stay out of online stuff...

I can respect that people on the other side of the fence might feel the same way in reverse sometimes.... but I'm not one dishing shit out, so I don't want to deal with your shit.... I could care less unless something you are going to tell me is provided in a clear and logical/unbiased report or something.....

ANYWAY... back on topic... tbh I have no idea what the topic is...

take it away jesus

[Vampirial]

Haha good old hitch hikers...

Yeah well it's not specific to religion and it's not an "this is the case for every religion/other", it's not specific to anythign really, religion is just the most obvious/simple example... That's why I was talking about like vegitarians and vegans or whatever... It's more that people have a way of life that they enjoy or they think is better then either their old way or other people's ways... some of these people do constructive things, like release a book which might have specific statistics, researched information and viable evidence to say "eating only vegitables is better for you than eating meat and veg, but that doens't mean meat is bad"... But then often I see people (I like to call them wanabee vegitarians), will do it cause they think it makes them better people and they may insult you for eating meat and have that whole "hollier than though" attitude and put up false/contradicting arguments to make themselves seem more "righteous"... Like "fur/chopping down tree's is murder"... Well if you REALLY beleieve that get naked, and never eat anything except dirt/sand again... otherwise you're basically a hypocrite.

DERAIL INC: I was a vegetarian for about 10 years and I got so sick of everyone teasing going OMG the poor animals you must love them etc etc. Or waving meat in front of my face and then be suprised cos I wasn't puking my guts up. I just have to say FUCK U to all the vegetarians out there who are anti meat there are some of us who are sane (not that I am anymore - not my insanity my vegetariaism that is.)

Angry post in the tradition of karj. BTW totally agree with karj. Also to be back on topic this whole article reminds me of the nature vs nurture studies. You know the ones isolated twins who for some reason got separated didn't know about the other blah blah blah, comparing them to twins who aren't separated at birth. Trouble is like with all of them you can never entirely differentiate between how much is environmental and how much is genetic (the good articles on it usually cite this in there somewhere and try and say how their specific test was made for one or the other). Or maybe similar to many folk tales or ancient history for example this gully exists because a giant snake used to go through here everyday. Maybe to some extent people do make up reasons for things to be or exist, but science does technically alter the balance when we can learn why they exist. This whole article to me seems if we didn't have science this is how we would still explain things - but I do think this article pushes the boundaries and has very selfish tendecies, to say a rock has jagged edges to cut your feet upon almost seems that your looking at the world from your perspective alone and not considering the whole picture. And given they were using children for the study lets face it a young child is rather selfish and technically the centre of their own universe. So maybe its not science giving us a different perspective but age aswell when we grow up and realize theres a whole wide world out there. Hmmm hope this makes sense to someone i tend to get lost intangents a lot.

[Cartollomew]

DERAIL INC: I was a vegetarian for about 10 years and I got so sick of everyone teasing going OMG the poor animals you must love them etc etc. Or waving meat in front of my face and then be suprised cos I wasn't puking my guts up. I just have to say FUCK U to all the vegetarians out there who are anti meat there are some of us who are sane (not that I am anymore - not my insanity my vegetariaism that is.)

Yes, it must have been very frustrating being a sane Christian vegetarian and being lumped in with all the nutjob Christians vegetarians.
Or hearing people speak about vegetarians generally as though all vegetarians are like that.

(apologies for the hijack, but I thought it was a neat opportunity to make my point)

And given they were using children for the study lets face it a young child is rather selfish and technically the centre of their own universe. So maybe its not science giving us a different perspective but age aswell when we grow up and realize theres a whole wide world out there.

A first round of experiments suggested that adults make more teleological mistakes when pressed for time than when not. Yet Kelemen and Rosset also noticed that no matter how much time they had, test subjects tended to endorse false statements implying that the Earth is designed and maintained for life. "The earth has an ozone layer in order to protect it from UV rays", for instance.

They did adults too; they didn't fare much better.

Or maybe similar to many folk tales or ancient history for example this gully exists because a giant snake used to go through here everyday. Maybe to some extent people do make up reasons for things to be or exist, but science does technically alter the balance when we can learn why they exist. This whole article to me seems if we didn't have science this is how we would still explain things - but I do think this article pushes the boundaries and has very selfish tendecies, to say a rock has jagged edges to cut your feet upon almost seems that your looking at the world from your perspective alone and not considering the whole picture.

I suspect this is a reasonable conclusion to draw - more reasonable than stating that we have an inate "belief that our universe is designed".

...we were discussing what would be written on our gravestone when we die, and I wanted:
"But who will the world revolve around now?"

Surely it's natural to repurpose things around us as though they exist solely for our benefit - if the ozone layer is eroded, we have the appropriate "oh shit" survival reaction as a result.

Also to be back on topic this whole article reminds me of the nature vs nurture studies. You know the ones isolated twins who for some reason got separated didn't know about the other blah blah blah, comparing them to twins who aren't separated at birth. Trouble is like with all of them you can never entirely differentiate between how much is environmental and how much is genetic (the good articles on it usually cite this in there somewhere and try and say how their specific test was made for one or the other).

Such studies are usually pretty interesting, but yeh - limited in so many ways.

There have also been recent studies on the effects of treatment of children in the womb.

Rather than nature vs nurture, you can treat the womb as an environment all on its own - while the child is at the most delicate stages of development.
There is some weak evidence to suggest that one's sexual orientation can be at least partially, if not significantly, influenced depending on what, and how much, exposure they had to certain hormones in the womb.

[Karjalan]

Yes, it must have been very frustrating being a sane Christian vegetarian and being lumped in with all the nutjob Christians vegetarians.
Or hearing people speak about vegetarians generally as though all vegetarians are like that.

(apologies for the hijack, but I thought it was a neat opportunity to make my point)

Are you a Christian? Or implying I was meaning because some crazy religious people erk me that all crazy religious people erk me? Cause I was pretty clear that that wasn't the case.

[Cartollomew]

Are you a Christian?

Technically no - I'm just using that as an example of what I'm seeing a lot.

Or implying I was meaning because some crazy religious people erk me that all crazy religious people erk me? Cause I was pretty clear that that wasn't the case.

I'm not poking the stick at you or anyone in particular - it just shits me when people right about "Oh, Christians this" or "Religious people that" - because it neatly illustrates the ignorance they have in common with the very types of religious people about which they speak.

People don't crack the shits with vegetarians because they don't eat meat (unless, you know, they rock up to your bbq and whine about there being no food for them), they crack the shits with particular vegetarians because those particular vegetarians are dicks.

You've gone to great pains to show that you aren't a member of the "all religious people can suck my mother's cock" crowd; I was just using Sat's quote to illustrate the same point another way.

[dukkha]

DERAIL INC: I was a vegetarian for about 10 years and I got so sick of everyone teasing going OMG the poor animals you must love them etc etc. Or waving meat in front of my face and then be suprised cos I wasn't puking my guts up. I just have to say FUCK U to all the vegetarians out there who are anti meat there are some of us who are sane (not that I am anymore - not my insanity my vegetariaism that is.)

Erm... as a lifelong vegetarian (principally on ethical grounds), I fail to see how your example makes it seem that the vegetarians are bad. I'm not going to throw up if someone waves meat in front of my face, but it will make me uncomfortable and I'll generally try to avoid anyone who is that much of an ass, as it's usually fairly indicative of the rest of their personality.

There are some vegetarians (or more often vegans) who are strident in their opposition to meat and make an issue of it at every available point, but despite the media portraying it otherwise, I've known very few vegetarians who are like this (most will talk about the issue if it's raised, but it's not our job to convert you) and many, many meat eaters who enjoy making it an issue and trying to force meat on me/us. To the point that I and several friends have had various people try to sneak small amounts of meat into food they've cooked us because "we wouldn't notice and it'd show us that we should convert". So, yeah, perhaps figure that there's fuckwits on both sides of the fence. This applies to the main thrust of the post as well, although in both cases I'd tend to suggest there's a lot more assholes on one side of the argument. (I'm trying to stay out of the main conversation because I don't have time to write and research an essay at the moment )

[Cartollomew]

Whut?