Great Barrier Firewall?

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Cartollomew
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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Cartollomew » 17 Dec 2008, 13:51

http://libertus.net/censor/resources/st ... ering.html

A list of oft-misused or outright fictional stats regarding CP.

Of interest is one point relating to this...
Mitra wrote:When conroy first played the KP card, I did go looking for evidence that possession of kidddie porn leads to the commision of child abuse but all i could find was a ~66% associative link between the 2. (ie 66% of those who had kiddie porn had commited an act of child abuse at some time.
http://libertus.net/censor/resources/st ... html#ncm40

...although those are different figures, so they might not have based it on the same "sources".

The bottom line:
If your aim is to protect children, that's admirable, but if you do so by mispresenting falsehood or unverified statistics as fact, that's reprehensible, and does nothing for your agenda.
Who do you think you are? If you'd stopped winning, you could have been the Biggest Loser, if you gave up, you could have been a Survivor, if you'd stopped reading Orwell, you could have been on Big Brother!

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Cartollomew
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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Cartollomew » 23 Dec 2008, 13:16

Oop, here's a surprise:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/inter ... -73ne.html

The government has been sitting quietly on a report that basically says what everyone in the industry has been saying.

Seriously, wtf?

I really didn't need another reason to become cynical about partisan politicking, but this is ridiculous; Rudd's government hasn't been any more upstanding than Howard's was.
It's bad enough that I have exactly one party (hint: it ain't the democrats) that sits in the same quadrant as me on the political graph, but with both major parties being effectively the same, what the hell am I supposed to do?

Running for the senate is actually a possibility :roll:

Edit:

Oooh, yet more good news.
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Johnnyrico
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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Johnnyrico » 23 Dec 2008, 13:45

cart,

i would vote for you.
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Cartollomew
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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Cartollomew » 23 Dec 2008, 13:47

Johnnyrico wrote:cart,

i would vote for you.
I would push for "pants free parliament" every Tuesday, in your honour.

Unfortunately, unless we live in the same state, your vote won't do me much good :-)
Who do you think you are? If you'd stopped winning, you could have been the Biggest Loser, if you gave up, you could have been a Survivor, if you'd stopped reading Orwell, you could have been on Big Brother!

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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Cartollomew » 21 Jan 2009, 13:21

Not one to keep harping on about gross technical ignorance in a highly technical field, instead here's an interesting report on the more social side of things (that is not to ask "how would we do filtering?" but "do we even need to try?"):

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/pubrelease/isttf/

...and for those who aren't interested in reading the (admittedly fairly dry) PDFd report:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/techn ... .html?_r=2

Key quotes:
Report wrote:The Internet increases the availability of harmful, problematic and illegal content, but does
not always increase minors’ exposure. Unwanted exposure to pornography does occur
online, but those most likely to be exposed are those seeking it out, such as older male
minors. Most research focuses on adult pornography and violent content, but there are also
concerns about other content, including child pornography and the violent, pornographic,
and other problematic content that youth themselves generate.
So if your kid isn't going looking for bad things, they won't be assailed by images of Roger Rabbit banging away at his wife in an orgiastic furry saga - it's only when your kid decides he wants to start looking at bewbs a little closer that he'll likely run into them.

So why not apply a filter here?

For the same reason nanny chips installed on TVs are epic fail, and parental guidance is required or recommended for certain movies - it's not society's job to automatically protect your kid. It's our job to assist you in doing it yourself.
When it comes to something as unregulated and enormous as the web (because let's face it, this is about the web, it's not about the internet - the great firewall of Oz isn't going to filter P2P or IM - it's for the web), it is society's responsibility to educate both parents and children.
The web contains things you don't want your child to see.
These things typically don't show up unless they are sought out.
The only way to ensure that they won't go finding it, is to be aware of their activities and watch them while they use it. Failing that, don't let them on the net at all.
It is socially irresponsible for us to teach parents that a filter can do their job, the same way it would be socially irresponsible to just let the kid watch TV day and night and expect content regulators to make sure it's "okay" for them.
Report wrote:Bullying and harassment, most often by peers, are the most frequent threats that minors
face, both online and offline.
This social problem is entirely ignored by the proposed system, yet is apparently more significant than the threat of "unwanted" web content.
Your filter does nothing to protect Amanda from being targetted and bullied by her peers on MSN.
You keeping an eye on her, watching her behaviour while online is far more likely to indicate a problem, which can then be addressed.
Report wrote:Minors are not equally at risk online. Those who are most at risk often engage in risky
behaviors and have difficulties in other parts of their lives. The psychosocial makeup of
and family dynamics surrounding particular minors are better predictors of risk than the use
of specific media or technologies.
Maybe I'm putting words into their mouths, but I'm reading that as "If your family situation is crap, it'll be crap whether the net has porn or not."
That social problem doesn't have a technological solution.

The report does however go on to express "optimism" with regard to various technologies developed to help protect children.
Report wrote:Technology can play a helpful role, but there is no one technological solution or
specific combination of technological solutions to the problem of online safety for minors.
Report wrote:The Task Force does not believe that the Attorneys General should endorse any one
technology or set of technologies to protect minors online. Instead, the Attorneys General should
continue to work collaboratively with all stakeholders in pursuing a multifaceted approach to
enhance safety for minors online.
Right. Which would be exactly what isn't happening in Australia.
Not that I expect the Yanks to take their reports any more seriously than we did ours.
Report wrote:Parents and caregivers should: educate themselves about the Internet and the ways in which
their children use it, as well as about technology in general; explore and evaluate the
effectiveness of available technological tools for their particular child and their family
context, and adopt those tools as may be appropriate; be engaged and involved in their
children’s Internet use; be conscious of the common risks youth face to help their children
understand and navigate the technologies; be attentive to at-risk minors in their community
and in their children’s peer group; and recognize when they need to seek help from others.
Any good technological attempt at a solution results in a tool or further empowerment of the parents and family to look after their kids.
A policy founded on broad stroke filtering, particularly one shown to be ineffective, and a complete lack of parental education or even regard for education and advice only serves to further disempower parents.
Parents who are already outstripped by their children when it comes to knowledge of the web and internet services.
Who do you think you are? If you'd stopped winning, you could have been the Biggest Loser, if you gave up, you could have been a Survivor, if you'd stopped reading Orwell, you could have been on Big Brother!

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Philondra
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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Philondra » 21 Jan 2009, 13:37

The last problem you describe will solve itself in due time.

Namely, as people of born in or after ~1975 start to have children in massive numbers. With a the exception of computer professionals or those who use computers for 90% of their work (translators...) we still live in an age where most of the people over 35 don't have much experience in using the computers for anything other than a very limited subset of tasks. This problem will fix itself, as in about 10 years the number of computer illiterate 40 year olds will sharply decrease.

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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Cartollomew » 21 Jan 2009, 13:44

Philondra wrote:This problem will fix itself, as in about 10 years the number of computer illiterate 40 year olds will sharply decrease.
Up to a point; certainly, as time goes by, the contrast in net literacy between parents of today and parents of 10-15 years will be obvious.

But while this is a good thing, the number of new applications and technologies available - both in addition to the net and making use of the net - are increasing every day.

How many people over 30 are comfortable using email, but don't even know about facebook?
How many people aged 18-25 use facebook and email, but are grossly ignorant of blogger or twitter?

There are exceptions, but I suspect we live in a society where the user knowledge of children will always be ahead of that of adults, if for no other reason than that children are prepared to make a time investment in innovations where adults often are not.
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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Philondra » 21 Jan 2009, 14:01

This is true, but i would argue that skillset required to utilize and monitor any internet resource is largely the same now as it was 10 years ago. Some specifics may change, but once you have the basic skillset it is very easy to adapt as long as you are aware what you need to be looking for.

Knowing how to monitor your child's internet usage is the important skill to develop -- once you have that, the details of what sites employ what kinds of content/community interaction are easy enough to figure out.

In the same way, knowing how to search the internet for information is the basic skill that doesn't fundamentally change over time -- if you somehow teleported from 1995 to today, I could just tell you "just go to google.com and pretend that it's Webcrawler" and you'd already be at ~80% efficiency without any further instruction.

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http://nocleanfeed.com

Post by Johnnyrico » 21 Jan 2009, 14:13

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/10/austr ... der-2.html
Looks like China won't be the only place with a Great Firewall in place--The Australian government is introducing its own censorship regime that will determine what is or isn't illegal for you to view on the web. The move is said to help stop teenagers from accessing online pornography, but even if you opt-out of the pr0n filter, you'll get put on a different blacklist for "illegal" content.

So what could be considered illegal content? There's the possibility that the government will block any website related to controversial opinions on euthanasia, drugs or political dissent. Even legal content might get screwed with, considering even the best Internet content filters still incorrectly firewall about .1% of webpages. Who knew the land of bloomin' onions and Crocodile Dundee was teetering on the brink of Big Brother-ness?
My boss mentioned this to me today, sounds pretty gay. Is that the link xact has been going on about?

edit mitra: (Great Barrier Firewall?) = original post subject.
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Re: Great Barrier Firewall?

Post by Xact » 21 Jan 2009, 14:22

Yes, and the 3 page thread underneath this one called http://www.nocleanfeed.com
Last edited by Xact on 21 Jan 2009, 15:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Johnnyrico
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Re: Great Barrier Firewall?

Post by Johnnyrico » 21 Jan 2009, 14:28

website cannot be found :'(

this be mighty gay.
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Re: Great Barrier Firewall?

Post by Lellybaby » 21 Jan 2009, 14:43

Theres no way this will get through.

If people can't have their porn there will be mass riots
Image

Juke a DK/Warrior, Die Anyway ._.

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Cartollomew
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Re: http://nocleanfeed.com/

Post by Cartollomew » 21 Jan 2009, 15:32

...as long as you are aware what you need to be looking for.
Except you wouldn't know what P2P was. You certainly wouldn't know what BitTorrent was.

VOIP? Completely alien.

Even IM was a pretty radical concept when it was introduced.

Sure, depending on who you are, you might be able to learn these very quickly, but it's knowing that they exist and what their significance is that is the hard part.

Couple this with the fact that new services, applications and sites a dime a dozen, and most are irrelevant and will fade away, it becomes very hard for a parent to quickly figure out what technology is a priority and then learn about it.

This is where the education side of things needs to kick in - we need experts who are able to identify and break down the risks of any given moment.

At the present, very little is being done in this respect - there's work being done for researching filtering, but few (and poorly publicised) guidelines for parents to best handle their children's internet access.
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Re: Great Barrier Firewall?

Post by Cartollomew » 21 Jan 2009, 15:40

Jacinta wrote:Theres no way this will get through.

If people can't have their porn there will be mass riots
Aside from the technical infeasibility of it, it's also abhorrent from a privacy and liberty viewpoint.

I suspect "laws" will be passed, but I doubt they'll ever have any actual purpose or power.

Like the laws in the blog I linked - this is political posturing - making laws for the sake of looking good, not for the best benefit to society.
Who do you think you are? If you'd stopped winning, you could have been the Biggest Loser, if you gave up, you could have been a Survivor, if you'd stopped reading Orwell, you could have been on Big Brother!

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