Interesting read

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Re: Interesting read

Post by Xact » 18 Nov 2010, 16:39

Damn it, my post was invalid.

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Re: Interesting read

Post by jacob » 18 Nov 2010, 18:05

“Do not judge so that you will not be judged” Matthew 7:1
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:2
“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. Matthew 7:3-5

This Matthew guy seemed to have a good way of not being a hypocrite.

I'm definitely not perfect example of this (i'm an asshat), but I like what one of my old preachers used to quote "Preach the Gospel always, and sometimes use words."
If your doing it right, then your way of life will impact other people, no need to get down their throws with judgement.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Jmickey » 18 Nov 2010, 18:42

jacob wrote: I'm definitely not perfect example of this (i'm an asshat), but I like what one of my old preachers used to quote "Preach the Gospel always, and sometimes use words."
If your doing it right, then your way of life will impact other people, no need to get down their throws with judgement.
This man. He gets it.

I avoided this thread a bit, mainly because i've seen these types of threads blow up into all sorts of mess. I'm a "practicing" (for lack of a better word) christian. I attend church every Saturday, yada yada...

I've never told a friend/family member/random person on the street that they are going to hell unless they repent now and give them selves up, etc etc. And can happily say that I have hardly ever even mentioned God or my religion to anyone, including the dozen people that weren't christian when i met them, and are now.

I believe it's a life choice, no one has the right to tell you your wrong no matter what you believe (unless you truly believe that the aliens are coming...for this, I can't help you...)

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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 18 Nov 2010, 19:21

Jmickey wrote:And can happily say that I have hardly ever even mentioned God or my religion to anyone, including the dozen people that weren't christian when i met them, and are now.

I believe it's a life choice, no one has the right to tell you your wrong no matter what you believe (unless you truly believe that the aliens are coming...for this, I can't help you...)
Bearing in mind that I agree wholeheartedly with this attitude, and that this is for the sake of argument only: how do you reconcile it with the fact that the gospels are fairly explicit about evangelism?
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Jmickey » 18 Nov 2010, 19:50

Cartollomew wrote:Bearing in mind that I agree wholeheartedly with this attitude, and that this is for the sake of argument only: how do you reconcile it with the fact that the gospels are fairly explicit about evangelism?
For this I take more of a....Monkey See, Monkey Try and Follow approach instead of a Monkey Read, Monkey do exactly what Monkey Read.

Anyone fell free to correct me, but I don;t remember reading about Jesus ever throwing the concept of God down peoples throats, he performed miracles and when thanked, he told people to redirect their thanks to God, as he was just the "vessel" that God was using to do his work. This is basically the approach I take to it, in a way. Through his actions, people wanted to know more. Same concept, just different execution.

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Re: Interesting read

Post by jacob » 18 Nov 2010, 21:58

he performed miracles and when thanked, he told people to redirect their thanks to God
Todays modern miracles can be as simple as not being a complete dickhole =]
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mews » 19 Nov 2010, 00:58

jacob wrote:
he performed miracles and when thanked, he told people to redirect their thanks to God
Todays modern miracles can be as simple as not being a complete dickhole =]
Hahaha. Made my day.

Jesus, God, Allah, the bible, the quran are all very well and good... it's usually their fan clubs that I can't stand.

@Jmickey; The Bible is fairly direct, I don't know the verse(s), in that it tells Christian followers to spread the word of Jesus to as many as they can and for those who refuse you must try harder. That's obviously not verbatim, but you get the idea.

While this isn't what JESUS is to have said, it's what is written in the bible. How literal you take the text is open to interpretation, and yours is what I like to believe is correct.

TL;DR: Fuck evangelists.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by jacob » 19 Nov 2010, 02:32

@Jmickey; The Bible is fairly direct, I don't know the verse(s), in that it tells Christian followers to spread the word of Jesus to as many as they can and for those who refuse you must try harder. That's obviously not verbatim, but you get the idea.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
TL;DR: Fuck evangelists.
There is always leeway in anything thats said, and everything is open to a bit of interpretation (which is 99% of the time that something get's completed screwed up lol) but saying stuff like 'spread the word' could have meant at the time to make copies of the bible lol. And 'preaching' might not just be verbal. I could definitely be wrong but this reminds me of a conversation with a mate a long time ago;

Jacob - Fresh Christian: Blah Blah Blah I go to church, it's great, etc, good for me, you get the drill
Andrew - Non Christian: Basically fuck off (i'm shorthanding things)
Jacob - Fresh Christian: Well I've told you what I believe, could you tell me what you believe (trying to open up and continue conversation)
Andrew - Non Christian: Basically told me about a giant room with billions of little egg timers that is each persons life, and when it runs out a figure that looks like the grim reaper smashes your egg timer and you die, end. (I thought he was crazy)
But to the part I found interesting.
Jacob - Fresh Christian: Imagine a world where everyone has cancer and is slowly dying, and you are given the cure to cancer, but people have to accept it so they can live. It's saved your life, wouldn't you try and give it to everyone you see?
Andrew - Non Christian: Yeah but imagine the same world where there is no cancer, your just a crazy nut running around with a needle.


made me laugh.

Point being, he was a good mate and through hundreds of talks I've learnt that you really can't use just words to convince someone on a point that can't be 100% proven or disproven. Moot.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Handofdesu » 19 Nov 2010, 03:21

jacob wrote:-snip-

But to the part I found interesting.
Jacob - Fresh Christian: Imagine a world where everyone has cancer and is slowly dying, and you are given the cure to cancer, but people have to accept it so they can live. It's saved your life, wouldn't you try and give it to everyone you see?
Andrew - Non Christian: Yeah but imagine the same world where there is no cancer, your just a crazy nut running around with a needle.


made me laugh.

Point being, he was a good mate and through hundreds of talks I've learnt that you really can't use just words to convince someone on a point that can't be 100% proven or disproven. Moot.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Xact » 19 Nov 2010, 09:26

Lol Andrew sounds like a funny man.

Anyway, I'm glad this is a productive conversation with people talking about their beliefs so I guess I should share mine.

I was baptized Roman Catholic and spent my entire primary school life in a Catholic School, nun teachers etc, first year of High School I went to a catholic High school then got suspended and asked to leave, that year was the last time I went to Church (minus funerals) - so about 10 years since I've been to mass.

I have no intention in going back, yet I completely understand why people do.

I can understand why why people go to prison and find god, find something to live for, someone who will forgive you for your sins and help you change direction in life. Other people I don't completely understand, I know probably like 75% of people are born into it, the other 25% turn to it in a time of need. So yeah, I don't understand why people are into it but if helps them become a better person then I'm all for it, it's just not for me.

That being said, I can't explain the overwhelming sense of spiritual attunement I felt when I was sitting in the courtyard of the Blue Mosque when the call to prayer boomed through Istanbul and thousands of devout Muslims congregated at it's doors, changing there shoes and washing there feet. Seeing all these people bustling about then once the doors where shut it became eerily quiet for about 30 minutes, it was just surreal. Peeking through the wooden slated windows and watching them all prayer in unison was something amazing. Inside was pretty nice too when we walked around.

That day I felt there must be something if all these people are so devout to this, but I still can't bring myself to it, I feel I can't ignore what I know and take the words of mortal men for those of a greater being, I just can't, I know people are shit.

So anyway, reading the Qur'an at the moment is just something to read and to understand how it can be interpreted, I hope to read the book of Mormons next, sounds like a fair read lol.

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Re: Interesting read

Post by Lellybaby » 19 Nov 2010, 10:29

I'm sorry to tell you all but Jesus was just a Jean-Luc Picard Look-a-like that broke the prime directive by interfering with a lesser species.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 19 Nov 2010, 15:08

I should probably mention that I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with evangelism - faith is essentially a product, and as such it needs to be marketed. There are people who are open to various flavours of faith, and they need to be exposed to those options in order to be able to "buy" the right product for them.

I'm also in no way suggesting that Christians who don't actively evangelise, or don't do so in a traditional sense are not being "Christian" as such, but I just find it to be an interesting aspect of the faith to need to resolve in today's society.

I absolutely think that it's necessary to interpret the content of one's primary religious documents in order to apply them to one's life, but at the same time, it's important not to jump into that unprepared - so many of the Catholics I know are unaware of when the various gospels were written, or who the audiences were, or even who the actual "authors" or originators were. It's interesting for example that Jacob brings up the possibility that the direction could be to "make more copies of the bible", since that, as a concept, would not have even existed at the time of Jesus' life, or for hundreds of years after (in fact, the only easy way to do so - printing - wouldn't be remotely possible until relatively recently).

Again, not knowing these things doesn't make anyone less of whatever faith they may be, but actively finding the historical context or possible intention of the writing can greatly clear up uncertainties. Often it "hurts" at first, but it's greatly rewarding.
Xact wrote:That day I felt there must be something if all these people are so devout to this, but I still can't bring myself to it, I feel I can't ignore what I know and take the words of mortal men for those of a greater being, I just can't, I know people are shit.
It took me a while to come to this realisation - and I only hit it in the last few years - but what people believe and what they think or know can and are wildly different things. Belief is not so loose weave that one can actively manage it. The way that Xact "just knows" that people are ultimately too fallible for a faith to be valid is the exact same identical way that any given believer "knows" that their particular beliefs are correct - it's a state of being, not one of knowing.

This is why religious arguments rarely result in one side or the other "giving in" and adopting the other's position - religion's strength is its denial of what is observed in order to preserve belief. That's the exact opposite of the foundation of science, which I find to be an important fact - religion therefore serves a purpose that science never can. Neither one is particularly superior to the other, but they each provide and entirely different benefit.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Takius » 20 Nov 2010, 12:59

I must admit that I was fairly uncertain about stepping into this particular conversation, as I can be quite rabid about these things when gotten going. However I have been incredibly impressed about the level of maturity that has been upheld throughout. Just another reason why Molotov is so fucking unique. Props to people like Jacob and Jmickey for standing up for their views instead of reacting like the topic is somehow sacrosanct (pardon the pun). I've found the entire thing illuminating.

As for religion personally - I have to agree with cart when he made comments on belief being "a state of being, not one of knowing". I grew up in a atheist household, I've never set foot in a church with the aim of worshiping anything nor do I feel a particular need to. Although I do feel that by keeping me away from religion like they would keep my away from the plague my parents stunted my learning slightly, by not knowing about "Jesus and friends", not knowing references to the bible can actually be rather infuriating when dealing with a Christian, regardless of whether or not they mean to use them. Thanks to that upbringing I really feel no sense of 'spirituality' as such, science is the closest I can get to it. Its an interesting perspective, I don't really care about the whole 'saving' issue nor do I particularly get most western religions, they all seem to be a simple, brilliant way of controlling early populations whilst (in Europe at least) providing a sort of 'arch-government' structure that sat above all the city states and kingdoms that existed at the time. I don't mean any offence btw, its just how I see religion in general, just another tool those in powers can use to govern. Nothing more, nothing less.

But anyway, thanks for providing me with some very interesting reading material.

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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mews » 20 Nov 2010, 21:20

Takius wrote:... nor do I particularly get most western religions, they all seem to be a simple, brilliant way of controlling early populations whilst (in Europe at least) providing a sort of 'arch-government' structure that sat above all the city states and kingdoms that existed at the time...
Strangely enough, every single western country is steadily becoming less and less religious with the exception of the US. UK is leading the way, but most of Europe isn't far behind. Places like the Middle East, SE Asia and the subcontinent all have the opposite trend. Makes you wonder what spurs this along, whether it's evolving cultures, socioeconomic, political what probably supa sekret option number C, all of the above.

My personal view on religion feels very convoluted. I won't try to explain it because I'm bound to screw it up.

@Cart; I can understand what Evangelists are doing, but it's how they do it that flicks my tits. It comes back to what you said earlier with fear and indoctrinating the weak minded/willed. People like Yacob and Jmickey are obviously smart enough to make their own decisions, but when you get someone who isn't as educated, confident or knowledgeable about the world and it's inhabitants and they're basically told "Do this and glory is yours or don't and suffer eternal damnation", how are they s'pose to deal with that? It's a scare tactic.

Which brings me to raising children to believe in a religion and not allowing them to ask why... but that's a whole 'nother story.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Takius » 21 Nov 2010, 18:42

Mews wrote:
Takius wrote:... nor do I particularly get most western religions, they all seem to be a simple, brilliant way of controlling early populations whilst (in Europe at least) providing a sort of 'arch-government' structure that sat above all the city states and kingdoms that existed at the time...
Strangely enough, every single western country is steadily becoming less and less religious with the exception of the US. UK is leading the way, but most of Europe isn't far behind. Places like the Middle East, SE Asia and the subcontinent all have the opposite trend. Makes you wonder what spurs this along, whether it's evolving cultures, socioeconomic, political what probably supa sekret option number C, all of the above.

@Cart; I can understand what Evangelists are doing, but it's how they do it that flicks my tits. It comes back to what you said earlier with fear and indoctrinating the weak minded/willed. People like Yacob and Jmickey are obviously smart enough to make their own decisions, but when you get someone who isn't as educated, confident or knowledgeable about the world and it's inhabitants and they're basically told "Do this and glory is yours or don't and suffer eternal damnation", how are they s'pose to deal with that? It's a scare tactic.

Which brings me to raising children to believe in a religion and not allowing them to ask why... but that's a whole 'nother story.
Mew - I was referring to very early Europe, where in many nations the firstborn of an aristocratic family became the ruler in waiting whilst all sequent sons generally went into the priesthood.

I understand where your coming from with the whole Evangelists fear tactic thing, but its a legitimate one, just another political tool used by many organisations and political ideologies. I don't see why religion should be any different.


You do raise an excellent point about children however, I'd love to hear some views about this, especially from those who are religious.
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