Interesting read

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Mews
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mews » 22 Nov 2010, 11:30

Takius wrote:
Mew - I was referring to very early Europe, where in many nations the firstborn of an aristocratic family became the ruler in waiting whilst all sequent sons generally went into the priesthood.
I got that. It's that society and culture has changed so much that people of faith are falling out of favour, religion for the sake of control isn't very effective anymore - I bet that money would have more of an influence. The exception ie USA, is what's interesting.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 22 Nov 2010, 14:42

Takius wrote:You do raise an excellent point about children however, I'd love to hear some views about this, especially from those who are religious.
That's a tricky one.

We'll be raising our kids as Catholics - partly because that's our own foundation and old habits die hard, but mostly because I see no harm in it. I can see where the argument that this is indoctrination of minors who can't know better comes from, but at the same time I feel that if one isn't brought up with faith from a young age, it's extremely difficult to approach it in a healthy fashion in later life.

I'll also be pushing a knowledge of other denominations and religions, since I found it to be hugely useful in putting my own into context while I was growing up.
Whether or not my kids remain with the faith (as my wife has) or something else (as I eventually did) doesn't particularly phase me, as long as they had a decent foundation from which to grow.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mitra » 23 Nov 2010, 01:20

Cartollomew wrote:We'll be raising our kids as Catholics - partly because that's our own foundation and old habits die hard, but mostly because I see no harm in it. I can see where the argument that this is indoctrination of minors who can't know better comes from, but at the same time I feel that if one isn't brought up with faith from a young age, it's extremely difficult to approach it in a healthy fashion in later life.

I'll also be pushing a knowledge of other denominations and religions, since I found it to be hugely useful in putting my own into context while I was growing up.
Whether or not my kids remain with the faith (as my wife has) or something else (as I eventually did) doesn't particularly phase me, as long as they had a decent foundation from which to grow.
I don't know where you are at with your faith at the moment man, and I may be reading deeper into this than I should, but based on your choice of words "eventually did" are you saying that you feel that once a person leaves a faith; you don't feel that it is possible that they could ever go back to a faith (same or different)?

Personally while I still occasionally take the time to pray, I don't attend a church regularly, and haven't actually made a "special/feast" mass for almost 2 years now (your wedding excluded - as it was both a mass and special) but I still consider myself to be a catholic because that was the moral base I was brought up with. I don't feel that I will never go back to regular worship just because it's not something I'm into now. I'm mid-twenties it's not noted widely as being a great time of introspection into one's self. I've got at least one mid-life crisis ahead of me for that.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mitra » 23 Nov 2010, 02:40

I feel i should add this.

I like to think that it's impossible to turn ones back irrevocably on faith, though that may be less true of worship.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 23 Nov 2010, 11:15

That's a fair call - I don't anticipate that I'll be altering my beliefs in the near future, but I see no reason to suggest it won't happen.
Given I see it as being a state rather than a conscious choice, I certainly didn't mean for it to come across as if there's a "finality" of belief - "if you believe in X at 21, then you will forever".

But I do think that until one reaches a certain age - be that teens, twenties or sixties - it's entirely possible to not have "come into" (that is, independently believe or feel ownership of) one's own faith, whatever that may be. My point was that, when that first starts to happen, I want my kids to be coming at it from a firm foundation.

With regards to "turning one's back irrevocably on faith", I'm not so sure - the trouble is that "faith" is a broad word, as are many of the others involved, so it makes it difficult to meaningfully communicate on the issue. I like what Xact said though - the idea that if, in your heart of hearts you do/don't believe, there's no changing that until (or unless) you're ready to change, and I don't see any reason that can't go both ways.

As an aside, I still find the rituals surrounding worship to be rewarding, although in an entirely different way, and it's comforting to see a community practicing, even if I can't feel that faith myself, so bizarrely there's still "value" in the religion without the belief.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Jmickey » 23 Nov 2010, 12:54

I have to admit, when it comes to how I will be raising my future children, I am not at a point in my life where I have put alot of thought into it.

I was raised in a mixed environment, without going into alot of unrelated detail, my Mum was a churchy and my Dad considered it all bullshit. Whether or not certain details of my childhood caused me to inadvertantly side with my Mum (it was not a "best of both worlds" situation), I feel that in general I was given the freedom of choice, and now at the age of 21, I don't regret that choice, even now after I have the ability to fully understand it.

I feel that when it comes to raising my own kids, I will only want what is best for them, and based on what I believe, not raising them as christians wouldn't make any sense to me. Although, having said that, I will never force them to believe in something they don't want to and will, to the best of my ability, make sure they have the knowledge to make a solid decision for themselves. How I would do that, I have no idea...

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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mitra » 23 Nov 2010, 22:09

Mitra wrote:I feel i should add this.

I like to think that it's impossible to turn ones back irrevocably on faith, though that may be less true of worship.

even after having another go at it i don't think i managed to capture what i was after.

damn nuanced topic.

read worship above as 'specific type of worship' or 'worship within a particular organisational structure' (eg "the church")
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mews » 24 Nov 2010, 01:01

Mitra wrote:
Mitra wrote:I feel i should add this.

I like to think that it's impossible to turn ones back irrevocably on faith, though that may be less true of worship.

even after having another go at it i don't think i managed to capture what i was after.

damn nuanced topic.

read worship above as 'specific type of worship' or 'worship within a particular organisational structure' (eg "the church")
I read it as, and I might just be ad-libbing here, it's unlikely for someone to stop believing in the lessons taught/knowledge gained through a faith structure; ethics, morality, a lifestyle etc though you may stop believing in the institute as a whole/structure and actively participating.

Suddenly losing faith in God doesn't mean you're going to start punching babies or burning cripples in wheelchairs - no matter how hilarious that imagery may be.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Vampirial » 24 Nov 2010, 15:35

Very interesting topic. Faith is always controversial these days. I think in an ideal world we could all be free to believe and practice what we want to without judgement or fear of persecution. Of course that is never going to happen as there are people out there that think having sex with kids is ok (it's an extreme point but I think it just shows peoples opinions will always differ). There is always going to be some nutter that interprets a text in some way out there way then decides blowing up buildings is OK. I watched an interesting documentary on the Koran a while ago which was really nice to see. It specifically forbids people to suicide yet a whole section of extremists still use it by interpreting another passage as giving them permission. And there in lies the problem everything is open to interpretation in any text and unless some being (call it whatever you currently believe in) shows up and says "hey guys you got this bit right but I didn't really mean this as you put it" then I guess we just have to live with it. Who knows maybe a deity really does believe women menstruating are unclean and if that deity were a women that would make sense cause you sure do feel unclean at that time of the month!

I don't care what a person believes in and myself am more than happy to chat to anyone these days, but if a person can't sit down and have a cup of coffee with me because I wear black that is what really gets under my skin as most faiths advocate "tolerance" but a few don't want to practice it (not implying all are like this but unfortunately most I've come across are). I can also understand evangelists feel it's their mission to spread their happiness and good on em however if you show up at my door and I have a million things to do a screaming child to contend with it should never get to the point where I have to be abusive to make someone leave a simple sorry I'm not interested should suffice (generally I find the age gap makes a difference here older people are much more likely to understand then the young ones these days). I think to anyone preaching if I invited you into my house and explained my beliefs to you would you be willing to hear them? Sadly not many take you up on that offer!

As for raising my children I don't want them raised how I was. I was forced to attend moonbeams and sunbeams (I'm not even sure what affiliation it's associated with) and religion classes at school. My parents do not practice any sort of belief and seem mostly atheists to me but I think they just liked the time we were out of the house for. My fondest religious memory is actually when I was about 6 and my neighbor took me to her church. I had an absolute ball and my mum freaked when she found out it was Mormon and forbid me to go to the neighbors house ever again. The most tolerant religious group I have ever met have been the Jews. Hatters mother is Jewish so I have been to temple a few times. While they don't condone tattoos or piercings all the people were friendly towards us and accepted us without question and had no problems with us attending occasionally even though we never would convert. If I were to pick an organised religion for Satori to be raised in this would be it. However I don't class my self as one particular faith I believe what I want to and take stuff from everywhere. I have a firm belief in nature and love the earth and try and live my life to be kind to it. Hatter classes himself as pagan though he doesn't actually practice he just likes the ideology. As long as my daughter has a strong like and regard for nature I will feel I have done right by her no matter what faith she chooses. I am hoping to expose her to a whole heap so when she is older she can choose that which most suits her. I have no problems if she dedicates her faith to Muslim or Mormon. Sadly I can't say the same about her father... That's where that tolerance comes back again and Pagan is just the same there hopefully one day I can change his mind but who knows....
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 24 Nov 2010, 15:45

As an aside, the Jewish faith is an interesting one, as most denominations actively discourage evangelism - it can even be quite tricky to be officially accepted into the community.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Philondra » 25 Nov 2010, 00:51

Cartollomew wrote:As an aside, the Jewish faith is an interesting one, as most denominations actively discourage evangelism - it can even be quite tricky to be officially accepted into the community.
My mother has some experience with this. When I was 7, she was in the hospital for over one year. During her time there, she had what can only be termed a life-altering experience. When she left the hospital she was searching for faith and converted to Judaism. Her family was initially very not happy, but eventually they grew to accept it. The Jewish community welcomed her with open arms. My father was never really very religious and never goes to church, but he accepted my mom's decision as something that was right for her.

When I was younger I went to Sunday school for a year or so, but I never found it to resonate with me and dropped out after First Communion. This was around the time that my mother converted, and I started semi-regularly attending synagogue with her. I also learned how to read Hebrew (at least for pronunciation purposes, even if I didn't know what any of the words meant). The community was nice and accepting of me as well, even though I never converted and to this day have no religious convictions.

There came a point in my life where I hated religion in all forms, but this was mostly during my "militant gay" phase that I had through the last two years of high school. I'm at a point in my life that I realize that religion really is what the believer makes of it, and like all social institutions, can be used for good or twisted into something bad.

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Re: Interesting read

Post by Johnnyrico » 25 Nov 2010, 10:18

phil, i demand a pic of you with a militant gay tshirt
KGO!
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Vampirial » 26 Nov 2010, 13:57

Philondra wrote:
Cartollomew wrote:As an aside, the Jewish faith is an interesting one, as most denominations actively discourage evangelism - it can even be quite tricky to be officially accepted into the community.
My mother has some experience with this. When I was 7, she was in the hospital for over one year. During her time there, she had what can only be termed a life-altering experience. When she left the hospital she was searching for faith and converted to Judaism. Her family was initially very not happy, but eventually they grew to accept it. The Jewish community welcomed her with open arms. My father was never really very religious and never goes to church, but he accepted my mom's decision as something that was right for her.

When I was younger I went to Sunday school for a year or so, but I never found it to resonate with me and dropped out after First Communion. This was around the time that my mother converted, and I started semi-regularly attending synagogue with her. I also learned how to read Hebrew (at least for pronunciation purposes, even if I didn't know what any of the words meant). The community was nice and accepting of me as well, even though I never converted and to this day have no religious convictions.

There came a point in my life where I hated religion in all forms, but this was mostly during my "militant gay" phase that I had through the last two years of high school. I'm at a point in my life that I realize that religion really is what the believer makes of it, and like all social institutions, can be used for good or twisted into something bad.

This is what I love about Judaism all the people I've met from that faith are just so damn nice. I'm sure their must be some assholes out there but I've yet to find one. But the other religions I've met tonnes of idiots....
I also like the fact that in their faith it is "proper" to give to charities (some even doing multiplies) but it is something that is very impolite or improper to talk about or boast about. They just give for the sake of it and do not expect any recognition in return.
There was this guy from Hatters mums temple who is 90 odd years old a survivor from the holocaust and one of the nicest people you could ever meet. His blind and still works as a doctor. Everytime the Mormons came around (I think mormons like to keep tabs on them something in their faith that so many jews go to heaven too) Harry would talk to them and they'd leave questioning their own faith. Eventually no more Mormons ever showed up I'd assume their leadership got sick of them converting. But there was times when hatter went to temple for no other reason than to just stand guard at their door as hate crime was pretty common. He got into a few punchups with skinheads there (often involving weapons too). No matter what your faith I don't think you should be victimised because of it.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by bakazero » 20 Mar 2011, 03:10

taking her up the dirt track means something else in the land of baka...
like the crafty butcher? He sneaks his meat around the back door.

If you cant love your lady 365 days a year, niddah and all, you should take your boner, snap it off, and mail it to someone who has balls.

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