Interesting read

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Interesting read

Post by Xact » 15 Nov 2010, 14:19

So I decided to start reading the Qur'an the other week, interesting to see how differently scripture can be received by different people, I wonder how this is perceived.
And they ask you about menstruation. Say: it is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by dukkha » 15 Nov 2010, 15:39

That's pretty much a standard in all of the Abrahamic religions
Judaism:
According to the Torah, a man is forbidden from having sexual intercourse with a niddah, that is, a menstruating woman. This is part of the extensive laws of ritual purity described in the Torah. At one time, a large portion of Jewish law revolved around questions of ritual purity and impurity. The law of niddah is the only law of ritual purity that continues to be observed today; all of the other laws applied only when the Temple was in existence, but are not applicable today.

The time of separation begins at the first sign of blood and ends in the evening of the woman's seventh "clean day." This separation lasts a minimum of 12 days. The Torah prohibits only sexual intercourse, but the rabbis broadened this prohibition, maintaining that a man may not even touch his wife or sleep in the same bed as her during this time. Weddings must be scheduled carefully, so that the woman is not in a state of niddah on her wedding night.

At the end of the period of niddah, as soon as possible after nightfall after the seventh clean day, the woman must immerse herself in a kosher mikvah, a ritual pool. The mikvah was traditionally used to cleanse a person of various forms of ritual impurity
Christianity has a similar precept, in the works of Leviticus and his Holiness Code:
wiki wrote:Do not be sexually involved with a ritually unclean woman
ChristianNymphos.org... because it was the most amusing option google gave me wrote: [...]Having said that, if you were to authentically follow this law as it is written, along with other things, you would need to sleep in a separate bed as your husband, not touch in any way, and if your husband were to come in contact with any belongs that you also touched during your period he would need to be cleansed and would be “unclean” until the end of the day.
Even Hinduism has something similar:
In Hinduism, a woman experiencing her period cannot be part of religious ceremonies for the first 4 days of the cycle. In some areas of Nepal, the tradition of chhaupadi mandates that Hindu women be confined to a shed during menstruation and only allowed to eat dry foods, salt, and rice.

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Re: Interesting read

Post by Lellybaby » 15 Nov 2010, 16:15

Its nothing to do with being clean, that's just an excuse.

The men that wrote these books realised a woman can be vicious when they are on their period...

These are just words of caution ^_^
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 15 Nov 2010, 18:14

Ritual rules like these fascinate me.

I've heard it argued that the ritual rules put in place by (for example) parts of the Torah were for reasons of hygiene or practicality:

For example shellfish and pigs are listed as unclean and they also have a higher chance of giving you a stomach illness, therefore it's a way to protect the Jewish people from dying from all the terrible things that plagued gentiles.

Halal food, as laid out by Muslim law is similar in content to kosher food (although often not equivalent).

Applying that viewpoint, one could argue that such restrictions encourage sex when it is most likely to result in pregnancy and discourage (or forbid) sex when it is likely to be (ahem) "wasteful" or not result in pregnancy - after all, women were essentially livestock used to create more people. The concept of sex for fun or to show a bond between people would arguably be a luxury at best and an alien notion at worst.

The fact, also, that such rules exist across a number of faiths and cultures lends credibility to that reading.

That said, many of the rules and regulations found in the Torah are ritual for the sake of ritual - particularly relating to the treatment of the dead and relating to which fibres and clothes one can wear. The best explanation then would be that maybe some of the ritual restrictions and rules are there for practical purposes, but some are simply to create a sense of identity for whichever chosen people are the focus of the faith. Or maybe it's all the latter.

In either case, it's interesting that even in a society as sexually uninhibited as today's western culture, "having sex with a woman who is menstruating" is still something of a taboo - enough that I certainly haven't heard of it being a major fetish or common subject of pornography.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Xact » 16 Nov 2010, 08:30

End of menstruation ftw - hormones raging and shit, just strap on a jimmy.

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Re: Interesting read

Post by Takius » 16 Nov 2010, 18:43

In some areas of Nepal, the tradition of chhaupadi mandates that Hindu women be confined to a shed during menstruation and only allowed to eat dry foods, salt, and rice.
Very wise.....I think we should take all the money to be spent on the NBN and put it into building a big ass shed in the middle of the desert to house all menstruating women. Who's with me?
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Re: Interesting read

Post by jacob » 16 Nov 2010, 22:00

I think a lot of that old testament stuff was just a way to avoid bad things (like food poisoning / infection) until technology had caught up. A few of the old rules were changed later on (ok to eat hoofed animals) when people's understanding became more expansive (how to bleed a pig so it's blood doesn't poison the meta).
I find that pretty interesting because if thats the case, then maybe some of the rules we abide by today in our culture can be removed when our understanding increases again.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Johnnyrico » 17 Nov 2010, 00:12

Xact wrote:... shit, just strap on a jimmy.
I have this taped next to my mirror in the bathroom. Reminds me to always be prepared before heading out ^^
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Re: Interesting read

Post by jacob » 17 Nov 2010, 01:10

Xact wrote:So I decided to start reading the Qur'an the other week, interesting to see how differently scripture can be received by different people, I wonder how this is perceived.
And they ask you about menstruation. Say: it is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mews » 17 Nov 2010, 15:53

jacob wrote:I find that pretty interesting because if thats the case, then maybe some of the rules we abide by today in our culture can be removed when our understanding increases again.
Rationale people with sound minds might consider this, but I think you're underestimating how fanatical some religious folk are, how literal they take the text. Or maybe I'm just jaded because of a select few I've been exposed to.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 17 Nov 2010, 16:35

Mews wrote:
jacob wrote:I find that pretty interesting because if thats the case, then maybe some of the rules we abide by today in our culture can be removed when our understanding increases again.
Rationale people with sound minds might consider this, but I think you're underestimating how fanatical some religious folk are, how literal they take the text. Or maybe I'm just jaded because of a select few I've been exposed to.
As per my post above - some ritual rules might be attributable to issues of public health and wellbeing, but many, many of them are simply rituals without practical reason.
They just need to set the given faithful apart from all other people.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Mews » 17 Nov 2010, 20:53

/Derail

Here's an actual post from one the other forums I frequent from a Christian who believes in demons possessing him and witches casting spells on him - YES, the fact he's religious and believes in these things are related. I know it's not a fair sample to base an perspective on, but it IS fun to laugh at.
Just so you know, they are gone now. They were cast out. I went to a session with my friend Jay Bartlett and the demon told him that it was murder and entered my father due to my father committing murder in vietnam. When I was born it entered me. I didn't believe it. My father never told me what happened. He is very quiet about the war. It's a painful time for him. I prayed to the Lord to reveal to me if this was true or not. My father very seldom talked about the war my whole life. One night perhaps a few weeks later, we were drinking together, my father was drunk and told me out of the blue that when he was in vietnam and was attacked by the enemy a wounded enemy soldier went to him for help and my dad killed him, essentially he murdered him. I was very disturbed by what I heard. The next day he had no memory of telling me the story. My father has nightmares to this day. I had nightmares all of my life and didn't know why. I learned how to deal with demonic beings and cast them out and into hell.

You see, here is what you don't know. Demons are fallen angels. God is the King in heaven. There is a court in heaven with REAL laws like here on earth. When someone sins, they commit a crime against God. When a person sins and doesn't repent to God, satan can asked God for legal rights to that person, to enter their life and have a measure of control and influence over them. The demon can torment that individual as well and the ultimate goal is to destroy the life of that person. When the person repents to God of that sin, God pardons the crime and it's forgiven. Then throught he power of God, you can engauge in battle with the evil spirit and cast it out. You can also cast it into hell, which is what I did. I have a huge measure of relief from not having that in my life any longer. You can't say that it's all mental because I had no knowledge of this stuff until a few years ago. Everything made sense to me thanks to my friend the expert on this Jay Bartlett. He has written over 20 books on this stuff, been a missionary in many different countries, he has witnessed supernatural events including people walking through walls, raising the dead, levitation, healing the sick and many other things which are miraculous. Yes, God is real and so is the devil and trust me satan believes in God even if you don't.
I honestly think that he believes every single word of this, which makes me either feel sorry for him or think he should start writing movie scripts.

/Derail
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 18 Nov 2010, 11:13

Yeh, the whole "legal rights" thing is very US evangelical Christian - seems quite strange (but then there's a whoooole lotta Catholic stuff that's gotta seem weird to even Catholics).

Basically, what he needed was catharsis - back in the day, he would have gone to confession (or equivalent) for the same thing, some people still do.

Worth watching in relation to this - the final episode of John Safran vs God - he undergoes exorcism with a charismatic pastor in the bible belt. Pretty whack.

The bottom line is, if you create a religion of exclusion and fear, then the overriding reason to believe is going to be that fear - no matter how much these people talk about a loving Jayzuz. The motivation here is to "not go to Hell". That's a pretty broken system, and it results in a lot of these people who really truly believe that demons visit them at night or possess them.

Just like the people who obsess over aliens and watch the night skies fearfully, really truly believe that they get taken up by aliens.
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Re: Interesting read

Post by jacob » 18 Nov 2010, 15:56

Main point of practically every religion is to lead a good life though,
and the 20% make the 80% look bad with their interpretations/extreme views/etc.

I 100% believe in God, even helped lead a youth group for my church for 4-5 years, but I don't understand everything in it.
I would like to believe I have a pretty logical view even though I'd admit I would be (at least subconsciously) bias.

It's the few macdonalds workers that spit in the burgers that make us mistrust them all =]
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Re: Interesting read

Post by Cartollomew » 18 Nov 2010, 16:34

Well yeh, one bad Christian doesn't invalidate Christianity, just as one bad Muslim doesn't invalidate all Muslims.

The issue I tend to have is with the various denominations whose focus is more often on the idea of hell and judgement than on being and acting Christian.
It's a failing of many faiths that the idea of the next life can sometimes overwhelm the significance of not being an asshole in this one.
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